Cargo Gig Advice?

[Bob Dylan]

BINGO give that man a cigar, the only reason to go to college is to learn something that leads to a job that will pay you a lot. I think many middle class parents feel themselves a failure if their child pursues learning a trade, and would much rather have them get a degree in French History. We are training less engineers than we did in the 60's, even thought college enrollment is up 400%, however have had 1000% increase in communications majors. Students go to college by the 1000’s but graduate with no marketable skills. BTW My brother-in law, owns a Muffler Shop, (non-college graduate) lives in a neighborhood with Doctors, Lawyers. In addition, other professionals because he makes over $200K per year. Sends his kids to private schools, lots of vacations, etc. You fly airplanes because you like to fly airplanes, if you want to make money go to a trade school out of high school and run a muffler shop.

Finally, someone else around here who gets it. This board is full of bozos who fly airplanes for peanuts because it's "fun". It's a shame what has happened to this industry because many pilots are so lazy.

It would do some of these fools good to read "Shop Class as Soulcraft". It's written by a guy (genius level) who quit a Washington think tank to become a motorcycle mechanic.

The big money in the future will be repairing and renovations while a lot of the flightinfo bozos will be flying for less than middle class wages.

 

[staledog]

BINGO give that man a cigar, the only reason to go to college is to learn something that leads to a job that will pay you a lot. I think many middle class parents feel themselves a failure if their child pursues learning a trade, and would much rather have them get a degree in French History. We are training less engineers than we did in the 60's, even thought college enrollment is up 400%, however have had 1000% increase in communications majors. Students go to college by the 1000’s but graduate with no marketable skills. BTW My brother-in law, owns a Muffler Shop, (non-college graduate) lives in a neighborhood with Doctors, Lawyers. In addition, other professionals because he makes over $200K per year. Sends his kids to private schools, lots of vacations, etc. You fly airplanes because you like to fly airplanes, if you want to make money go to a trade school out of high school and run a muffler shop.

OK I would agree with this..

 

[staledog]

That's funny. My brother in law is a plumber and has never been busier. In fact, he's hired 10 employees this year. The fact is, the baby boomers are aging and staying in their older homes now, rather than buying a new second/retirement home in Florida or someplace. The handyman/plumber/electrician business is booming.

Very few people have the skills to be a plumber or an electrician.

The opposite is true for aviation. Stagnant, no growth, age 65, and too many boneheads (like the people in this thread) willing to do this job for next to nothing because they think it's fun. Lots of rich daddies paid for their loser kids to go to ERAU or somewhere when these underachievers should have learned a trade.

I think your cousins and brother are probably lazy and don't want to work. Plenty of work out there for guys that want it. Lazy ones can go stand in the unemployment line.

But I don't agree with any of this.

Yeah, some plumbers are busy, some are losing their jobs. Just like some pilots are busy and have good jobs, and some are on the street.

Aviation: No growth? I think not.

In a slump? Yes.

Coming out of the slump with the biggest hiring boom ever happening in the next 5 to 10 years? Yes.

Age 65 will contribute to this. It's a good thing for all the pilots trying to make it up the food chain, unless you're an old fart that wants to continue working past that.

By the way, I'm not willing to work for little or nothing. Nobody paid for me to get to where I am now, I came from nothing. My dad was a coal miner and laid off half the time when I was a kid.

Also, if I could make more money doing something else, I would.

It just so happens that I know how to do this, I LIKE doing this, and I can and do make good money at it.


p.s. I think anybody could be a plumber or an electrician. It's not rocket science. Neither is aviation. You could train a monkey to do any of these jobs.

 

[Bob Dylan]

But I don't agree with any of this.

Yeah, some plumbers are busy, some are losing their jobs. Just like some pilots are busy and have good jobs, and some are on the street.

Aviation: No growth? I think not.

In a slump? Yes.

Coming out of the slump with the biggest hiring boom ever happening in the next 5 to 10 years? Yes.

Age 65 will contribute to this. It's a good thing for all the pilots trying to make it up the food chain, unless you're an old fart that wants to continue working past that.

By the way, I'm not willing to work for little or nothing. Nobody paid for me to get to where I am now, I came from nothing. My dad was a coal miner and laid off half the time when I was a kid.

Also, if I could make more money doing something else, I would.

It just so happens that I know how to do this, I LIKE doing this, and I can and do make good money at it.


p.s. I think anybody could be a plumber or an electrician. It's not rocket science. Neither is aviation. You could train a monkey to do any of these jobs.

Apparently you agree with pretty much everything I said except the part about growth in aviation.

For that, I say, keep dreaming. If you think this business (aviation) is going to get better in the future, you truly have your head up your azz. Sorry, but true. This industry is flooded by bozos willing to work for free (unlike you, if what you say is true). I don't think there is anything wrong with liking your job, but unfortunately, most pilots are unwilling to do anything else but fly which drives our wages down.

Also, it takes much more creativity and critical thinking to be a plumber than a pilot. Anybody can be a pilot (as long as you have a rich daddy) whereas not everybody can be a plumber.

 

[landlover]

I think your cousins and brother are probably lazy and don't want to work. Plenty of work out there for guys that want it. Lazy ones can go stand in the unemployment line.

i guess i'll join you in making assumptions. i think your brother is a union busting manager and undercuts by using illegal migrant workers. or he is selling drugs and the plumbing biz is just how he washes his money. all 3 do odd jobs/side work using said trade, but aren't sustaining full time income. have you ever thought maybe the demand for this type of work varies greatly by region. bob dylan you come across about as smart as a bag of hammers.

 

[stupidpilot]

What's wrong with becoming a pilot, but then having another skill or two in your back pocket when things go south? We work in a very volatile industry. We seem to be one of the first to go down the crapper when the economy gets bad, and then one of the last to come back when it recovers. We spend long hours on the road in hotel rooms picking our noses(amongst other nasty things) just waiting for the next flight. I say utilize that time to enhance your marketability or have a side business that nets you extra money you can put aside for the bad times. Whenever any kid asks me about becoming a pilot, I tell him that it's a great job but it's a lousy career. Always have at least one or two other means of income to fall back on.

 

[terryhfly]

Perhaps the mods could open a plumber thread and this could be moved there.

 

[Captainzero1]

My sister and her husband are school teachers in Michigan family income in excess of $160K per year, live in a $400K house, buy new cars every year. School teachers can make a good living. The movie "Waiting for Superman" real grabber, you see parents who want their kids to succeed, you see kids who know they need an education, but they are trapped in a failing school system. You feel so sorry for these kids. But the teachers union will not allow anything to be done to these failing teachers. The NEA/NFT will use their power to get rid of anyone who tries to improve on the system. When you see these motivated kids not get a lottery number to get into a high performance charter school, it is like seeing them get a death sentence. No wonder the US is a failing society. BTW Because of what I saw in the Ann Arbor, MI school system, it matched this movie in the low-income section where I lived, I put my son into the Catholic school system. 99% of his classmate went on to college.

PY, your sister and her husband are the what you would call classic middle class, which helps to power our economy. What do you want to do, slash their wages to 30,000 a piece, what would that do to our kids having motivated and committed teachers as well as to our economy. We have given the truly rich so many tax breaks for the past 10 years, how come we are stilled mired in an economic malaise. I thought they (the rich) would spend the money so it could trickle down to the great unwashed. Quit beating up on unions, My dad retired from a utility which had a union. He is collecting a 65,000 a year pension plus social security which is plenty for him to live on. Not bad for a guy with a 10th grade education. Only in america . BTW. he worked is arse off providing for me and my siblings. He didn't get anything he didn't work his arse off for per the contract. Now are you going to start feeling sorry for the poor utilty that had to pay him. Believe me they got their pound of flesh.

 

[pilotyip]

PY, your sister and her husband are the what you would call classic middle class, which helps to power our economy. What do you want to do, slash their wages to 30,000 a piece, what would that do to our kids having motivated and committed teachers as well as to our economy. We have given the truly rich so many tax breaks for the past 10 years, how come we are stilled mired in an economic malaise. I thought they (the rich) would spend the money so it could trickle down to the great unwashed. Quit beating up on unions, My dad retired from a utility which had a union. He is collecting a 65,000 a year pension plus social security which is plenty for him to live on. Not bad for a guy with a 10th grade education. Only in america . BTW. he worked is arse off providing for me and my siblings. He didn't get anything he didn't work his arse off for per the contract. Now are you going to start feeling sorry for the poor utilty that had to pay him. Believe me they got their pound of flesh.

This post about my schoolteacher sister was in response to a post that school teachers are under paid Not bad for a 174 days a year, 6 hour days, don't give me the grading homework, lesson plans, etc. they only had 4 classes during that six hour day. I have nothing against their income, but their productivity would not survive in the business world. As posted above Ann Arbor, a town that thinks money grows on trees. Completely out of touch with reality. Used to live there, going to U of M grad school after leaving the Navy. As a student I live in the low-income section of the city. The city is very liberal, let the public employee unions set up fantastic pay, benefit, and retirement. 20 years 75% base pay for retirement, full medical, and cola. The retiree cost now makes up the largest portion of the budget. Now a manufacture, Phiser Drugs (sp?) decides the Michigan business climate is too difficult and packs up and leaves. They paid 25% of the taxes for the city, the other major employer is U of M, and they pay no taxes. So the city goes after the tax base, with the standard, police and firefighter layoff if you don’t pay more taxes. While I lived there the city wanted to make black English a second language requirement in all schools, they already had a no failure policy in the schools, and you know automatic advancement even if you were dumb as a rock. I go a parent –teacher conference, wondering why my son has no homework, teacher says oh! He and this other girl are only ones who are working on 3rd grade level out of 30 kids; she says most of them are at the kindergarten level. . This feel good policy punishes the very people they are trying to help the poor, for they learn nothing. They hate the airport; airplanes represent everything wrong in our society, pollution, noise, and incorrect use of green space. They propose to turn the airport into a low-income housing development, with the runway as Main Street. I moved out as soon as I could

 

[Redmeat]

This post about my schoolteacher sister was in response to a post that school teachers are under paid Not bad for a 174 days a year, 6 hour days, don't give me the grading homework, lesson plans, etc. they only had 4 classes during that six hour day. I have nothing against their income, but their productivity would not survive in the business world. As posted above Ann Arbor, a town that thinks money grows on trees. Completely out of touch with reality. Used to live there, going to U of M grad school after leaving the Navy. As a student I live in the low-income section of the city. The city is very liberal, let the public employee unions set up fantastic pay, benefit, and retirement. 20 years 75% base pay for retirement, full medical, and cola. The retiree cost now makes up the largest portion of the budget. Now a manufacture, Phiser Drugs (sp?) decides the Michigan business climate is too difficult and packs up and leaves. They paid 25% of the taxes for the city, the other major employer is U of M, and they pay no taxes. So the city goes after the tax base, with the standard, police and firefighter layoff if you don’t pay more taxes. While I lived there the city wanted to make black English a second language requirement in all schools, they already had a no failure policy in the schools, and you know automatic advancement even if you were dumb as a rock. I go a parent –teacher conference, wondering why my son has no homework, teacher says oh! He and this other girl are only ones who are working on 3rd grade level out of 30 kids; she says most of them are at the kindergarten level. . This feel good policy punishes the very people they are trying to help the poor, for they learn nothing. They hate the airport; airplanes represent everything wrong in our society, pollution, noise, and incorrect use of green space. They propose to turn the airport into a low-income housing development, with the runway as Main Street. I moved out as soon as I could

Since it appears you like big airports and the communities that surround them...have you looked into living in Romulus next to DTW? Some nice prize-winning neighborhoods round' there huh?

I bet their school system is top-notch too.

Belleville used to be an OK place to reside 25 years ago if you happened to fly for one of the bottom feeders at YIP while you were paying your dues. Now, with the exception of the lake-shore property, it is a slum. Their schools are a mess as well.

I'll take Ann Arbor any day of the week. The animosity the city has toward the airport stems from an FAA expansion study done some years back that called for turning it into a huge "reliever" facility. Back then Connie was bringing DC8s and even Forty-Sevens into YIP daily. The city of Ann Arbor did not want any part of that, just as the city of Canton didn't want any part of a huge cargo expansion plan at YIP. I don't blame them one bit.

Take a look at any neighborhood in the country that surrounds a big airport and you will get the drift. Property values plummet and it essentially becomes industrial wasteland.

Face the facts pilotyip...not everyone loves airplanes as much as you and most pilots after they reach a certain age have bigger priorities outside of aviation.

Get a life...

 

[pilotyip]

Since it appears you like big airports and the communities that surround them...have you looked into living in Romulus next to DTW? Some nice prize-winning neighborhoods round' there huh?

I bet their school system is top-notch too.

Belleville used to be an OK place to reside 25 years ago if you happened to fly for one of the bottom feeders at YIP while you were paying your dues. Now, with the exception of the lake-shore property, it is a slum. Their schools are a mess as well.

I'll take Ann Arbor any day of the week. The animosity the city has toward the airport stems from an FAA expansion study done some years back that called for turning it into a huge "reliever" facility. Back then Connie was bringing DC8s and even Forty-Sevens into YIP daily. The city of Ann Arbor did not want any part of that, just as the city of Canton didn't want any part of a huge cargo expansion plan at YIP. I don't blame them one bit.

Take a look at any neighborhood in the country that surrounds a big airport and you will get the drift. Property values plummet and it essentially becomes industrial wasteland.

Face the facts pilotyip...not everyone loves airplanes as much as you and most pilots after they reach a certain age have bigger priorities outside of aviation.

Get a life...

I have a life, it centers around KYIP where I have my airplane based so I can do flight instruction, where I fly for USA Jet, and where I fly the war birds on the air show circuit in the summer. Still living a childhood dream. Not that I though I would end up at KYIP, but it has been a ball and I would change very little. I count myself a truly lucky. BTW You know to an under performing school if you are motivated and hard working can have its advantages, my granddaughter graduated from Belleville High School. Top 10 in a class of over 600, 4.0+ GPA, Captain of girls. Cross country and Volleyball teams, editor of the school newspaper, and president of the National honor Society. Wrote a 29 ACT, accepted at every college she applied to, had numerous scholarship offers, including a NROTC at U of M which she turned down, now with regrets, because of the military obligation after college on a boat somewhere. I told her she missed one of the most fantastic adventures of the life.

 

[tubineotter]

you fellas can have that down state crap, i prefer to live in the land up north aye! u betcha

 

[Redmeat]

you fellas can have that down state crap, i prefer to live in the land up north aye! u betcha

I hear ya. Although not quite the UP, we have a place near Charlevoix that we try to get to every chance we have during the summer. It's not a convenient place to try to get to work from though .

 

[LandGreen]

You say: Any of the Technology fields pay high dollar to sharp folks and they don't have the antagonistic atmosphere of the airlines.

I say: Ever seen the movie "Office Space"? Plenty of places have that antagonistic atmosphere and bad management, not just the airlines.

Also, I would make sure that the field you choose does not have a chance of being outsourced to India, China, etc. Maybe a plumber or electrician will be the new career goal for our young? Anything in computers seems like it could be outsourced easily...

 

[Redmeat]

You say: Any of the Technology fields pay high dollar to sharp folks and they don't have the antagonistic atmosphere of the airlines.

I say: Ever seen the movie "Office Space"? Plenty of places have that antagonistic atmosphere and bad management, not just the airlines.

Also, I would make sure that the field you choose does not have a chance of being outsourced to India, China, etc. Maybe a plumber or electrician will be the new career goal for our young? Anything in computers seems like it could be outsourced easily...

When young people put all their eggs into the flying basket, they have just as much chance flying a clapped out freighter out of Willow headed for mehico on the back side of the clock every night. Once there TOO long it is viewed in contempt, not as an experience builder.

OR, becoming an aviation prostitute on an RJ hoping for "the big leagues".

OR, if a young person actually DOES eventually make it to a position in this biz with pay and work rules that even remotely come close to being worth the time and effort it took to get to that position, he has this to look forward to....granted this is a severe case, but I've seen little snippets of this sort of behavior in this industry everyday in the last ten years and it's getting worse everyday...

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=140582

Very much surprised that this was not brought to the 'front-burner' earlier/or not at all. After reading other emails/accounts that substantiated this incident, seems as if all ALPA Pilot's need to be aware/support this Captain.

Appears to be just another example of how 'diminished' Captain's Authority has become.


Captain **** **** was the Captain on United Airlines Flight 744 on December 2*, 2010 from Denver to Boston departing from Gate B-37. After assisting Maintenance with a reverser problem which had delayed the flight, Customer Service began boarding the aircraft when the go ahead was given by Zone Control around 8:30 am.

At the last minute, a Jet Blue pilot entered the cockpit and requested to ride the cockpit jumpseat to Boston since the flight was planned to be full. After checking his credentials, and after introductions were made, the pilot requested to stow his bags in the cockpit, to which Captain **** agreed since there was plenty of room. The jumpseater further stated that the CSR working the flight had taken his roller board away from him and was going to gate check it.

Captain **** exited the cockpit onto the jetway and saw the pilot’s bag next to the jetway door. He told the CSR, a Mr. Douglas ******, fn ######, that it was ok for the pilot to stow his bag in the cockpit. Mr. ****** rudely responded that the bag was going to be gate checked and would not be allowed on the aircraft. As the working Captain of the flight, Captain **** felt it was well within his authority over OMC issues to allow the bag in the cockpit. In order to accommodate the jumpseater who was commuting to work, he told the CSR that he was taking the bag onboard.

At that time, the CSR opened the jetway door, grabbed the bag, and threw it out onto the slide to the bottom of the jetway stairs. As he did that, Captain **** attempted to go out onto the jetway stairs, but the CSR abruptly closed the door, and used his body to bump the Captain back onto the jetway. The Captain was astonished by the CSR’s highly antagonistic actions.

The Captain asked him if the CSR was going to prevent him from accessing the ramp, to which the CSR replied that was his intention. The Captain pointed out that he was a badged employee and the CSR had no right to deny him access to the ramp. He replied that he was not going to allow the Captain onto the ramp. The Captain then attempted to go around him, when he forcibly tried to stop the Captain’s progress again making physical contact. The Captain continued to move to gain access through the door. When it became apparent that the Captain was going to gain access, Mr. ****** abruptly stopped pushing, flopped back and stated, “That’s assault.” No one else was present on the jetway during this encounter.

The Captain went out the jetway door and down the stairs, retrieved the pilot’s bag, and brought it back up to the top of the jetway stairs. Having forgotten the door access code, he was standing at the top of the stairs outside the jetway door calling the Company Crew telephone number in order to retrieve the code from an automated system. As he was in this process, the CSR opened the jetway door, grabbed the pilot’s bag and again threw it down the jetway slide.

The bag was again retrieved, and the Denver Domicile Flight Operations Representative was called in order to get a Flight Manager for assistance. The jetway door again opened, this time by a CSR supervisor, and the Captain regained access to the jetway.

The Captain’s access to the aircraft was now blocked by two CSR supervisors. So, as he stood there with the bag, he called the Flight Operations Duty Manager, and spoke with Scott Miller. He explained the situation, and asked him to check on the actual verbiage in the Flight Operations Manual, in order to verify where the bag was allowed to be stowed. Scott verified that it could be stowed in the primary or secondary crew stowage areas, the primary area being in the cockpit.

About this time, DEN 767 F/O William Fox, the Flight Operations Representative, came down the jetway, and the Captain briefly explained what has happening. .

On the jetway now, there were about three CSR supervisors, the CSR, and four Denver Airport police officers. The Captain was surprised when the police arrived, and he became concerned about the escalating situation. He made the statement that he was exercising his Captain’s Authority to board the bag in the cockpit. One police officer came forward, stating that “you have no authority, I am the authority, and your authority is only in effect on the airplane, and then you can be Captain or Admiral or whatever you want.”

The Captain also called ALPA representatives who in turn called the NER ACP Captain James Simons in order to get some Flight Operations assistance, but without any success. The Captain was trying to use his resources in the Flight Operations chain of command, but the situation was spiraling out of control. No one from United management seemed to be taking control of matters. A police officer asserted that the Captain was causing an inconvenience for a lot of passengers and that he should just get on the airplane. The implication was very clear, “Fly or be arrested!”

This whole situation, the obvious disregard for the Captain’s authority for the conduct of this flight, the physical intimidation and lying by the CSR, and the added intimidation by the police officers, and the lack of any meaningful support from company management put him in a very difficult situation. He was faced with assuming the responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight and safety of an aircraft with 148 passengers and 5 crew aboard into a snow storm where the forecast visibility was 1 mile and decreasing with a resultant lowering ceiling; or removing himself from the flight due to the continuing stress and mental distraction that he was enduring from the intimidation and interference while attempting to perform his duties in a responsible and diligent manner. The Captain was no longer focused on the jumpseater’s bag, but rather the safety of the flight.

The Captain then made a statement questioning his fitness to fly, and that maybe he should conscientiously remove himself from the flight which he subsequently did. After gathering his gear from the cockpit, he was then placed under arrest for assault and disturbance by the Denver Airport Police, handcuffed, transported to first a holding cell at the airport, and then downtown for processing and booking. Up until the point of his self-removal from the flight, he had the option of boarding the aircraft as pilot in command and departing.

Except for Captain McCaskey’s assistance in getting from the Denver jail back to DIA, support from United Airlines in this matter has been notably absent. Moreover, he is personally liable for any and all legal fees and other expenses resulting from this incident, even though he was in the pursuit of his duties, and his final decision to remove himself from the flight was made with the overriding interests of flight safety in mind at the expense of his own well-being. Amazingly, the Company has chosen to ignore his self-sacrifice and to instead issue a disciplinary letter of charge for unprofessional behavior. The Captain is currently awaiting the Company’s decision after his hearing at IADFO.

The Company's behavior in this matter is unfathomable when viewed solely in the context of safe airline operations. But when you factor in their campaign against the stature and importance of the airline pilot profession their actions become understandable. Lastly, the fact that Captain **** is an active ALPA volunteer, currently serving on the MEC Grievance Committee, makes very clear the motivation behind the Company's actions.

 

[LXApilot]

So ... how about that cargo airline hiring information? Can't think I'd waste the time applying to FedEx; seems they've made it very clear that without having been "in the unit" that we civilian pilots are without hope of ever flying a plane with a purple paint job. Atlas? Applied there in 2007 and have been updating. Recently met with their people at the job fair in LAS last week; haven't heard anything. World? Applied there in 2005; even volunteered to help staff their call center during the strike; I have been updating- haven't heard anything. Centurion and Arrow Air? Have been applying to both since 2007 without having ever heard a word. Have applied multiple times to USA Jet, Kalitta and Capital Air Cargo without ever hearing any responses. Also spoke to Jim Guess at UPS who informed me to apply to Northern Air Cargo- haven't heard anything in response from them either. Also applied to Key Lime Air every few months since 2007 without hearing form them. Spoke to AmeriJet back in January 2010 at the job fair in Miami and have been faxing in the application every so often; but have never received any response from their offices.

So... any more ideas?

 

[Whine Lover]

Man...I've never applied to that many places in my entire life combined.

Does your Resume' have a picture of a hairy ball sack or a swastika on it?

If it does....I'd take those off.

Other than that I'm out of ideas. Anyone else?


YKW

 

[Fox-Tree]

So ... how about that cargo airline hiring information? Can't think I'd waste the time applying to FedEx; seems they've made it very clear that without having been "in the unit" that we civilian pilots are without hope of ever flying a plane with a purple paint job.

Easy cop out. Latest new hire classes have been over 50% civilian background type guys. Give it a try.

Can't chomp on sour grapes if you never both to pop one into your mouth.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Man...I've never applied to that many places in my entire life combined.

Does your Resume' have a picture of a hairy ball sack or a swastika on it?

If it does....I'd take those off.

Other than that I'm out of ideas. Anyone else?


YKW

Haha! Great post!

 

[kamikaize]

where do you live or are you willing to move?