Career Advice for the 2008 hiring boom

[Dave Benjamin]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation liek this:

I will be finishing my first year of college next semester, after I complete my Comm/Multi I have a good chance of getting on with a 121 carrier, here up north, because of working there (similar to an internship), I oviously won't turn down the twin turbine 121 job because of school, if I am locally based I still should be able to go to school , but if not, is the Embry-Riddle on-line degree program efficient? Will a normal guy like me be able to do it in a timely fashion? Let me know what you guys think and if you have any advise for me.

I am working on a degree through the ERAU extended campus (internet) program and a coworker is also doing his masters the same way.
We both like the program and the flexibility. It is a lot of work though. You don't get away without studying and in some respects it can be harder than traditional college settings. If you live near a resident center you can do some of your classes there if your schedule works out.
If you want to eventually end up at a major your chances are much better with the degree. Even if you don't go to a major I've found the classes to be relevant and useful. They are also much more "real world" than the classes I took in college nearly 20 years ago.
One thing I have to say to Alaskaairlines who made the post I quoted is that hey, you're still a young pup. Ultimately you could go traditional classroom or ERAU extended campus and you'll do fine either way. You seem very motivated which is important. Do what feels right to you and don't take everything on this board too seriously. A lot of guys that busted their hump to get hired by UAL are on the street and their slacker friends that hung out for a while at a commuter before getting on at JetBlue will be upgrading in a year. My point is that success is part timing and part luck. People make the best decision with the information they have and sometimes get it wrong. Noone has a crystal ball. The decisions in the example I just made looked very good at the time. Unfortunately the UAL furloughee is back to square one flying for a regional if he's lucky. Fast forward 5 years and who knows. JetBlue could be out of business and the UAL furloughee is back at mainline pulling down 100K plus. This whole industry can start to look like a craps table.

 

[dasmith]

get a degree

college is a lot of fun, especially the ladies, do you know more females get degrees then men? go enjoy in the imbalance

 

[Frank Abagnale]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation liek this:

I will be finishing my first year of college next semester, after I complete my Comm/Multi I have a good chance of getting on with a 121 carrier, here up north, because of working there (similar to an internship), I oviously won't turn down the twin turbine 121 job because of school, if I am locally based I still should be able to go to school , but if not, is the Embry-Riddle on-line degree program efficient? Will a normal guy like me be able to do it in a timely fashion? Let me know what you guys think and if you have any advise for me.

time is everything in this buisness. especaily turbine time, even better 121 turbine. if you can do both at the same time, more power to you. i know alot of f.o.'s taking classes online while they fly the line. 4 year degree should not be a limiting factor for you for a couple of years. plenty of time to live the dream.

best of luck

 

[msw]

Why is it EITHER "get the degree" or "do the professional flying"? I was a CFI by my sophomore year in college, and flying Part 135 scheduled pax and frieght (piston twins) by my Junior year. I was, essentially, working full time and going to school full time. Ultimately, when I graduated with a BS degree in engineering, I also had approx 2500 hrs TT , about 800 hrs multi, and the "You Passed The ATP, But Bring This Letter Back To The FAA When You Turn 23" Letter. And in a good position to move on to further professional aviation pursuits. The point is, a young person CAN do both. Yes, it is hard, but what better time to do it, than when you are young and (relatively) unencumbered?

 

[Frac Daddy]

pilotyip,

Here is a REAL scenario for you: Within a couple of months of each other, six pilots at a certain fractional interview at Southwest; five have degrees and one doesn't. The five with the degrees sail through the interview and get hired. The one without the degree gets badgered by the interviewer because he doesn't have one even though his current employer has a tuition reimbursement program. Although this pilot has more time than the rest of the other pilots, he is the only one rejected.

A REAL fact: FedEx REQUIRES a four year degree.

Another REAL fact: Your options, should you be furloughed or lose your medical, are more limited without a degree.


Get a degree! Any degree!!

 

[Alaskaairlines]

Hey there fellas!

Well I certainly do appreciate all the encouragement and advise! Dave Benjamin, Frank Abagnale, etc... thanks for the words of advise and encouragement! Sure means a lot when school keeps you extremely busy!

I'll keep you guys posted and i'd appreciate more tips!

 

[Dutch]

Is this a realistic comparison?

While I agree that all things being equal a degree may tip the scales I wonder how accurate this thread really is. No one, degree or not is guaranteed the results that pilot B got...I'd love to have 4500 hours in that time frame but many things must fall into place for that to happen.

my $0.02

 

[Vortilon]

1. There is no quick, guaranteed way to get anywhere in aviation....so a "head start" building time guarantees nothing. Someone will always have more hours than you.

2. You will spend most of your aviation life trying to fulfull certain requirements so you can check certain boxes on applications to get that "big job" you are looking for...a degree is merely one of those boxes and is a lot easier to get now than when you are 30 and working for a living...so why not just do it?

3. As someone else mentioned, you take your degree with you through life so no matter what you do...your degree will benefit you.

4. And most importantly, your degree and depth of life experience will also benefit ME if I fly with you.

I don't know many pilots that talk about flying all day when we're in the cockpit...how boring...not to mention redundant! Flying stories are meant to be told over beers on the overnight. When I'm cruising for 4 hours I want to hear your fun college stories, how you are interested in certain cars, your investment strategies, your interest in history, how you are buying your first house, how your painful divorce is rendering your penniless, etc.! If you don't have a degree I'll just have to listen to: "This TCAS sure is neat....I remember once when I got this TA and...."

Go enjoy your college years, earn the degree and THEN jump headfirst into aviation. You have plenty of time to fly later.

And one personal point from my own experience....every job I've been able to get in aviation so far (flight instructor, regional airline pilot, major airline pilot & now charter pilot) has had a lot to do with help from my friends...all of whom I met in college and are still a part of my life. There is no gray-haired mentor out there who will help you get every interview....turns out its your peers and lifelong friends that help you out in this business and you're going to need all the help you can get.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[de Pez]

Above a certain threshold, total flight hours count for very little. That threshold will vary depending upon the individuals' background (military/civilian) and the types of aicraft flown, among half a dozen other variables...So how do the HR people decide who to call for an interview? They look at the total package....Recommendations, background, recency of experience, PIC, and total flight time.

Once the interview is achieved, a degree can make a tremendous difference between one candidate and another also. Imagine sitting in a room with 10 people having comparable flight times, no DUI's, and all the appropriate boxes checked. All except the one individual who hasn't checked college degree. He may be hired, but statistically, probably not.

As of May 2001, Air Inc. stats show that 88% of civilian new hires at "major" airlines had a college degree, and 99% of military new hires had "4 or more years of college".

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

As of May 2001, Air Inc. stats show that 88% of civilian new hires at "major" airlines had a college degree, and 99% of military new hires had "4 or more years of college".

In all of 2000, here's the breakdown of 1023 of the hired pilots to major airlines.

89% of the civilians had 4 year degrees or more. But that doesn't mean the other 11% didn't go to school. A full 10% more had at least 2-3 years of college. Only a mere 1% had less than two years of college. I'd say this supports the need for college to fly for a major .

Now, if one looks at the numbers for the Nationals and Regionals, it supports PilotYIP's point that one can have a good flying career without a college education. I'd say this is a good graph to refer to for decision-making in that regard. Your mileage may vary (as Goldie from the naval aviation safety school often said).
http://www.jet-jobs.com/press releases/chartstats.html

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Omitted from this chart are an unkown number of corporate pilots, many of whom I'm sure are out there without degrees, but I bet they are also in the minority. I still stand by my recommendation to a young aspiring professional pilot to get a degree.

Just another note about that chart. Look at the disparity between jet regionals and non-jet regionals as it relates to college experience. I'd say it can be argued that generally, jet regional is a better job pay-wise than a non-jet regional. The folks with less than two years of college were twice as likely to be at the non-jet regional. Those with 2-3 years of college were also quite a bit more likely to be at the non-jet. Granted, there aren't as many non-jet operators out there today, but the stat must be worth something. This was all in 2000. I doubt anyone would argue that it's a heck of a lot more competetive out there these days.

 

[banned username 2]

Omitted from this chart are an unkown number of corporate pilots, many of whom I'm sure are out there without degrees, but I bet they are also in the minority.

Most of the good Corporate jobs require a 4 year college degree.

It is funny how PilotYIP hasn't responded to his own thread lately.

 

[pilotyip]

exactly

That is what I have been saying all along, The individual will define what a successful aviation career is, and if a person is happy as a National Captain without a 4 yr degree, he is happy and it is not up to this board to tell him he is not successful. He depends upon how you define success. Even though I have been refered to me as a looser here at USA Jet, I am very happy here and have turned down other jobs. I am one of the luckiest guys around, becasue other than the majors, I have done just about everything I wanted to in my life. Growing up I wanted to be a Navy pilot, that defined my major life goal. Just having fun since.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: exactly

That is what I have been saying all along, The individual will define what a successful aviation career is, and if a person is happy as a National Captain without a 4 yr degree, he is happy and it is not up to this board to tell him he is not successful. He depends upon how you define success. Even though I have been refered to me as a looser here at USA Jet, I am very happy here and have turned down other jobs. I am one of the luckiest guys around, becasue other than the majors, I have done just about everything I wanted to in my life. Growing up I wanted to be a Navy pilot, that defined my major life goal. Just having fun since.

Then why are you defining someones career by trying to limit their options? Not having a 4 year degree certainly limits the options of a Professional pilot. Having that 4 year degree allows you opportunity at jobs that do AND do not require 4 year degrees... You get the best of both worlds.

 

[bigD]

The individual will define what a successful aviation career is, and if a person is happy as a National Captain without a 4 yr degree, he is happy and it is not up to this board to tell him he is not successful. He depends upon how you define success.

I dont think anyone here is saying that guys without degrees aren't successful. Obviously success if how you define it.

These threads tend to arise from someone asking whether or not they should get a 4 year degree, and most people reply in the affirmative because the degree gives any given person a statistically higher chance of getting hired. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

These threads tend to arise from someone asking whether or not they should get a 4 year degree,

More specifically, the original question was "Do the MAJORS hire people without 4-year degrees?". All that success defined garbage came after the original question was asked and answered. Now we've answered two questions. So let's move on and talk about flying

 

[pilotyip]

Never said major

The thread was hijacked I tell you, hijacked. I never said major, I was refering to an aviation career, and due to this board's extreme PC. And there are many pilots who consider their carrer successful withour a college degree, while not working for a major. That was my point, you can get to that level in 2008 without a degree, it is an individual choice and not be to judged by anyone except the person making te chioce. Last on the subject until I start another thread on how a 4 yr degree is not needed to make it as a pilot.

 

[bobbysamd]

But even so . . . . .

[T]here are many pilots who consider their carrer successful withour a college degree, while not working for a major. That was my point, you can get to that level in 2008 without a degree, it is an individual choice and not be to judged by anyone except the person making te chioce.

I agree that success is how you define it. While I feel that I failed in many ways because I didn't attain my career goals that in the eyes of others I was successful. I flew airplanes and was paid to do it. I know that many people would have loved to have done what I frequently gripe about.

Having said that, I feel that no matter what your career goal may be, you are stifling yourself from attaining it if you choose not to present the best qualifications possible. And, your goals may change. Who knows? You might have set out just to fly C-46 freight for Universal Air Transport because you love old, radial-powered airplanes and believed the majors weren't worth the hassle. But then you hear that the majors are hiring in droves and now you're interested in them. You may regret that in light of your competition you cannot offer the best credentials possible for something that you now really want. Better to be overqualified in some aspects than underqualified.

Just a little more food for thought.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Never said major

And there are many pilots who consider their carrer successful withour a college degree

And the guy at McDonald's thinks his career is sucessful when he upgrades from the Fry Machine to the Grill.

It is all relative.

If you want the opportunity to work for a Major or a good Corporate Flight Department, you better get a degree. If you have no aspirations for that type of work, then a degree isn't required (however still a good idea).

Remember when a kid is 18 years old and just getting out of high school, flying a King Air for $30k a year may seem like a dream job, but when he is 40, has 2 kids and a wife to support and can't get much past $60k-$70k flying charter, it will be too late to realistically change paths. I know several guys this happened to, trust me, they aren't happy.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Re: Never said major

The thread was hijacked I tell you, hijacked. I never said major,

That's the whole point. The question WAS specifically originally posted directly in reference to MAJORS. I fully concur that it was highjacked into a thread that did not answer the original question. Specifically someone had a lot to say about success in general in relation to a college degree. Not the original question...highjacked? Yes.

 

[enigma]

I haven't read every word in this string, so I may have missed it..... But, I don't know why YIP posted this.

I agree with YIP that one doesn't need a degree to make $100 grand in aviation. But, if one wants to work for an operator that allows more than a thirty minute showtime and has work rules other than "the maximun extent of the FAR's"; then one probably should get a degree.

One certainly doesn't need a degree to get a decent job, but one does need luck.

However, if you don't have luck on your side, a degree helps even your odds when pursuing a career, and most importantly, a life.

Using myself as an example, I interviewed with SWA in 1998. I made it all the way to the hiring board, but didn't get past that committee. I had no bachelors degree. I was one of a very few who received a post interview interview, and during the telephone conversation with Ms Scaggs, I was specifically told that I needed a degree to succeed. Had I have had the degree in 1998, I'm relatively certain that I would be in SWA upgrade now, instead of sitting reserve for Spirit. As it stands, I can make $100K at NK by picking up a little OT, but I have to work 21 days a month and sit reserve 18 of those days. Spirit has devolved from a flying club, into a sweatshop in the last three years and even though I enjoy my job, I would rather be at SWA.
Now, I have a degree. (ERAU Professional Aeronautics), but the timing stinks. Yes, I now have a degree, but my dream employer (I never even took the FE writtens), SWA, is no longer the "easy" interview. Now, since they are one of only a few quality airlines hiring, they have gone to the top of everyones list, and the competition for their jobs has gone up exponentially. The point being, had I had the degree to begin with, I would be at SWA now instead of trying to gain an interview in competition with 5 thousand United/USAirways/American/etc, furlougees and shipjumpers.

The silver lining to the cloud, (and supporting evidence for YIPs point) is that I do have a job Captaining a narrowbody with the potential for $120K a year (that I gained by having a significant amount of Learjet PIC). If I wanted to live in south Florida, life would be good.

No, a degree is not necessary, but your overall life will be better with the education. If someone doesn't have the time and money to fly and go to college, I suggest that you train now, get a flying job and get a distance learning degree. Hundreds of legitimate independent study programs exist (search this forum for strings that discussed the issue), that are doable and affordable. I used ERAU, but would not do it again. I started at ERAU before the boom in programs and was too far along to start over when others became readily available. Back to the plan, train, get a flying job, build experience, go to college on the side. By the time the next hiring boom happens, you should be able to have a degree and a few thousand hours PIC. That way, you have both experience and education.

Good Luck,
enigma

 

[English]

enigma,

What a great post.

 

[cdog]

Get a degree, major doesn't matter, doesn't matter were it's from(accredited naturally).
I've worked outside the U.S. for a long time now. I've made a real good living. But no degree limited my possibilities in the U.S. Now I do have a BBA (company sponsored) but I,m not young any more and I'm to established to leave anyway. As I saw and agree with in an earlier post, now days a college degree is like a HS degree was in the 70s, need it to get that career job.

I don't entirely disagree with Pilotyip but, he does need to improve his spelling.

 

[Freightdog75]

OK, I'll jump on this one................

I have no aspeiration of ever going to a major in my career. Hence the fact that I'm in no hurry to get a degree. Do I plan on getting a degree? Yes. Probably a BA to start with and then evaluate my current situation to see where to go from there. Does this mean I'm a worse pilot than the next guy? I just don't financially have the means right now, or the time to do the schooling. Hopefully in the future.

As far as a good career goes, it depends on the individual. Myself.......I want quality of life. Being home, decent pay, and the job.........a gratifying one. I could care less about what equipment I fly, as long as it's safe and reliable. This whole "I fly the 777 so my balls must be bigger than yours" is crap!

Once again I think it's all about the individual and what he/she wants to get out of life.

Fly safe ya'll FD75

 

[C-150ETOPS]

This whole "I fly the 777 so my balls must be bigger than yours" is crap!

You're right.

I fly a 777 and I'm hung like a church mouse.

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA, degree, and integrity

I agree with the above, Mr. 8N, excellent post.

I had no bachelors degree. I was one of a very few who received a post interview interview, and during the telephone conversation with Ms Scaggs, I was specifically told that I needed a degree to succeed.

Ms. Scaggs did absolutely the right thing by telling you why you weren't considered for hire. Companies won't tell you why you weren't hired because they're afraid of being sued for various types of discrimination, even if you assure them that you just want to know what you did wrong for the next time. Ms. Scaggs at Southwest deserves an "A" for integrity.

 

[Freightdog75]

xXpress1,

I'm hearin' ya with the time issue. The thing that I do have on my side is I'm in my early 20's, hence I do have time to get that all-important-powerful-degree. Regardless of the career that one chooses, aviation or otherwise, the degree can do nothing but help.

The other issue I oftenthink about is -- What happens if I do something like loose an eye or mame myself in some strange sort of way............PROBLEMS !!!!!!!!!!!! Thats the driving force behind me to go and get a backup career(degree). All my eggs are in one basket and that scares the he11 out of me.

Take it easy
FD75

 

[Alaskaairlines]

Great reply enigma! Did you get your BA from Riddle doing their on-line degree program? Does it work efficeintly, and can it be doen while working fulltime?

Thanks!

 

[rettofly]

Re: SWA, degree, and integrity

I agree with the above, Mr. 8N, excellent post. Ms. Scaggs did absolutely the right thing by telling you why you weren't considered for hire. Companies won't tell you why you weren't hired because they're afraid of being sued for various types of discrimination, even if you assure them that you just want to know what you did wrong for the next time. Ms. Scaggs at Southwest deserves an "A" for integrity.

Amen to that! I suspect the lack of the integrity shown by Ms Scaggs is the main reason for most potential employers' failure to send "no interest" letters in response to resumes. After all, if you can credibly pretend that you never received the paper, you don't have exposure to discrimination claims.
As for me, I would much rather know why I was not considered for a position or why I was weeded out after being considered.
Kudos to Ms Scaggs and any other HR person for making the effort.

 

[Snakum]

My take on degree v.s. non-degree ...

I went back to school full time in 1989 after a five-year stint in Uncle Sams hunt club. Nothing like pounding ground with lots of heavy stuff hanging off your a$$ to motivate one to return to school. I took a full load averaging 18 hours while working full-time 2nd shift as a QC Inspector in the sheet metal fabrication industry. I was 26 years old and it was still a crushing schedule. I couldn't do it today. POINT NUMBER ONE .... Do it while your young, if at all possible.

Though I've been educating myself almost constantly since I graduated from a variety of sources, I have only a two-year AAS degree in Engineering Technology. I have competed against four-year degreed applicants for most of my career in QA Engineering/Management and now in the IT industry. I have done very well (though you wouldn't know it looking at my finances today ) despite my lack of a BA/BS because I could sell myself like no one else and my track record showed I could perform and I could get along with others (hugely under-rated attribute). Would I have done more with a four-year? I dunno ... but what I do know is this: POINT NUMBER TWO ... a college degree, of any variety, will presently open doors for you that might otherwise be closed. Especially in aviation. Get at least an Associates degree. Any idiot can manage that ... look at me!

What I have drilled into my own kids heads for the last few years is that gainful employment, as myself and my father knew and understood it, is a very different animal from what my kids will face. In North Carolina, indeed most of the country, our jobs are being sold to the lowest bidders world-wide at an alarming rate. And not just manufacturing, either. In the IT industry India, Singapore, and Philippines are successfully courting American businesses for their IT work and we're shipping it off like there's no tomorrow. Even customer service work is being outsourced. Chances are when you dial the CS number for Amazon or other large E-Retailers you will be speaking to someone with a heavy accent. Engineering (Boeing is firing MEs in Seattle and outsourcing the design work to Russian subcontractors), design, marketing, you name it ... it's being outsourced. Nothing is sacred here in North America and Western Europe. It's ALL going bye-bye. World capitalism at work ... Econ 101. So what's a young man to do? Get a business degree from a good school and learn a foreign language. If you are not involved in the buying and selling of goods and services in the future you may, indeed, be flipping burgers. So POINT NUMBER THREE ... the kind of degree you have may become more important in the future than we now realize. Choose well for a fall-back career.

Line 99 set(oldFart=off);
Line 100 set(pontificating=off);
Minh