Can you get a type without an ATP?

[Ty Webb]

Continuing the thought.
If I had a type rating in a CE551, and a CE551S, could I fly myself and my wife IFR, without getting a commercial?

Why would you want to?

That's like saying, "Geez, I am going to Vail for a month- should I learn how to ski, or can I just clump up and down the slopes in my hiking boots?

Most pilots strive to develop the highest skill level, not the bare minimum to keep from taking a dirt nap.

If you aren't interested in learning how to operate a jet in the safest and most highly-skilled manner, do us all a favor and stay out of controlled airspace.

It kind of reminds me of the guy who taxies out to the runway at an uncontrolled field and fires up his radio and makes a single call as he's taking the runway.

Is it legal? Yup. Is it smart? Hell, no. He has no idea who is inbound. He has no idea who is in the pattern. No one knows about him until seconds before he's in the air . . . he doesn;t even know if his transmitter is working, but he has made his required radio call.

 

[sky37d]

You are right. Commercial should be done, and I haven't won the lottery yet either.

 

[avbug]

What a ridiculous statement, Ty. Do you suppose that holding a commercial certificate vs. a private pilot certificate makes on any safer? Not hardly. Commercial certification requires just a few more hours, and grants a few more privileges. Private flying is not necessarily unsafe. Let's face it. I know plenty of ATP's with whom I wouldn't send my dog (if I still had her).

Someone who meets the practical test standards for a type rating meets the same standards that would be required of an ATP. There are not private standards vs. ATP standards for a type; it's one standard, and it's the ATP standard. Therefore, one can surmise that one who obtains a type has demonstrated performance to ATP standard, at a minimum.

Do you really suppose that holding a private pilot certificate makes one unsafe? Do you imagine that some great barrier exists above FL180 that requires some greater level of certification for entry?

The fact is that flying a turbojet is easier than flying most any piston airplane. The fact is that flying IFR is easier and more simple than flying VFR. The fact is that flying a turbojet airplane under IFR is about as simple as it gets...are you saying that this is beyond the capability of a pilot because he or she holds a private pilot certificate?

It may surprise you to know that Flight Safety, Simuflite, Simcom, and others handle a number of private pilots every year...pilots who can afford and operate high performance, complex aircraft, and who attend based on mandated sim training.

Stay out of controlled airspace because one has only a private pilot certificate? Rather egocentric, don't you think?

Just how many radio calls do you think someone should make when taking the runway? You're not one of those dingbats that says, "any inbound traffic please advise," are you? I make one radio call, and I go. Perhaps you had better hope you never fly in the same airspace I do, hmmm?

You suggested that one who makes only one call doesn't know if his transmitter is working. Does he know if he makes two calls? Nope.

Does anybody know he's taking off? Sure. Anybody who happens to be watching, and anybody who happens to be listening.

Perhaps this would be better.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberryis starting the left engine, and will shortly be taxiing to runway three five, via taxiways alpha, bravo, Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. Any traffic in the area, please advise.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry has both engines running now, and is taxiing from the ramp area for runway three five, via taxiways alpha, bravo, Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. I am wearing a white shirt with cute little gold epaulets. Any traffic in the area, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on taxiway alpha, headed for Bravo, then Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. My turn-ons include latex, women who paint, and the sounds of broken glass. Any traffic in the area, please advise, and for the love of Pete would somebody give me a radio check and let me know my transciever is working??"

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on taxiway Bravo, gettin real close to Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. Iv'e got a gal in Kalamazoo, her name is Fran. Does anybody know the words to My Darling Valentine? I feel great today. Very regular. Any traffic in the area please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on Taxiway Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. My bad, I forgot to call taxiway Sierra, any traffic. We'll be sitting here for a few minutes while my only passenger, Eric Fishbein, the CEO of a small company located right here in the valley, finishes his soup. Any traffic in the area, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is preparing to take runway three five for departure to the Northwest, headed for Portland, for a twelve o'clock landing. This is it. I mean it this time, if you're out there, advise me; it's almost your last chance."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is really on runway three five this time. Any traffic, stay clear. I'm on the runway. It's mine, I'm using it, you can't land on it. I'm departing the runway at this time using a normal takeoff proceedure, I'm powering up now, and there's probably a really loud sound going on right behind my airplane. Any traffic in my way, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is half way down the runway, approaching V1, which is my takeoff safety decision speed for all you uneducated private pilots out there. There's no turning back now. Don't cross the end of the runway, cause that's where I'm going. Over."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is up and clear. Switching."

"Aaah, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry, this is Whatchamacallit Center. Be advised you've been on Center frequency for the last fifteen minutes..."

Do you really think that a radio replaces see-and-avoid? I surely don't.

 

[TonyC]

ROFL

Perhaps this would be better.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry ...

"Aaah, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry, this is Whatchamacallit Center. Be advised you've been on Center frequency for the last fifteen minutes..."

Best laugh I've had in a while!

 

[Big Duke Six]

ATP privileges

By Sweptback -

"Not only do you not need an ATP to get a type, but if you get, say, a commercial type and then later get your ATP, the commercial type magically becomes an ATP type."

I always thought that if you got a type on your Commercial, then subsequently earned your ATP, your type still only carried Commercial privileges.

Anyone? I could be the idiot here...

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>I always thought that if you got a type on your Commercial, then subsequently earned your ATP, your type still only carried Commercial privileges.

Yeah, I'd always heard the same thing, but 61.157(d) says that the type rating gets ATP priveliges when you get our ATP. I don't know if this is a change, or the people I was listening to had it wrong all along.

 

[Ty Webb]

Avbug:

I expected I would get some grief from you, given the choices you have made in your career. I don;t mean that as an insult at all, you have a great deal of exprience, but you have certainly chosen a path much different from many of the pilots on this board, and might have a different opinion.

Nevertheless, I stand by everything in my post. I never said that a private pilot certificate was bad; what I said was that a pilot who is looking for the minimum knowlege and training is someone to be avoided, and I mean that. How you personally choose to get to the higher levels of airmanship is up to each pilot, but I'll bet that if I flew with you, it would be pretty evident that you strive to fly the airplane to the best of your abilities, not to the lowest required denominator.

As for the part of my post that describes the lame radio procedures of the less-than-completely-conscious-pilots- I stick to that too. Although your post was quite funny, I was referring to the fact that without their radio on, they have no way of hearing the reports of inbound aircraft .

Sure, a radio isn't even required to operate at most uncontrolled fields, we all know that, but most people I know that regularly fly without radios are a little more attentive to traffic than what I am describing, which is, again, the pilot striving to do the least amount necessary.

I guarantee you that those douche bags who taxi out to the runway and then turn on their radio just before takeoff are not the guys who have fine-tuned their traffic scan. This, to me, is a person who has just pissed away an opportunity to learn about inbound traffic, and to make others aware of his departure, and even check the operational status of his radios, which he might need . . . . . a missed opportunity, that costs nothing, but could save lives.

As I fly with many different captains, some of them will tell me as we take the runway for the first flight of the day, "you can skip the radar, we don;t need it". I always turn it on anyway, and tell them gently, "I like to make sure it's working- we may need it later today". Required? No. But I can tell you a couple of guys whose lives would have been saved if they had spent that two seconds flipping the switch to "on" before departure.

My point, again, is that pilots need to think about being the best, not doing the least. And to me, getting a jet type without bothering to get the Commercial just smacks of laziness and tells me that the individual in question has more money than brains.

And as Mark Twain observed- "No generalization is worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**- including this one" but for the most part, the pilot looking for the training shortcut is one to be avoided, and that was the point of my post.

Breaker, Breaker, c'mon back?

 

[cdog]

Diesel mentioned his buddy getting a type rating in an EMB-110.
I am pretty sure that an EMB-110 doesn't require a type rating, GWs 12,500.

Go get your case of suds.

 

[sky37d]

However Ty

The point is made, if the type rating is to ATP standards, but I'm john travolta, and am NEVER going to "fly the line", or be a CFI, why should I spend the time (note TIME, not money) to earn a commercial. Let alone an ATP. I'm going to perform to ATP standards, I'm just NEVER going to be flying to earn a living.
With most folks in that category. Folks who can afford a Jet for their own personal use. Fly it themselves because they love to fly, it TIME that is important. So why do the time to get a commercial, if you are never going to use it. That person would still be required to do the recurrent training stuff.
There was an article a while back about a guy in his 40's-50's that said, hey I'm going to learn to fly. A year later he was flying a citation, his own. Insurance mandated a co-pilot, and a license is really a license to learn, but the bottom line is this guy was never going to be the pilot for a 135 operation, he bought it for his personal use. I had always wondered how he got to fly it, and now I know.

Thanks to all

 

[varicam]

Diesel mentioned his buddy getting a type rating in an EMB-110.
I am pretty sure that an EMB-110 doesn't require a type rating, GWs 12,500.

Go get your case of suds.

Check out the SFAR 41 modification to the basic airplane which raises the max takeoff weight. An EMB-110 type rating is required for these airplanes unless the MGTOW is restricted to 12,500.

 

[avbug]

Ty,

Do you believe that the holder of a private pilot certificate has sought out some minimum standard, and holds himself or herself only to minimum standards?

To suggest that the holder of a private pilot certificate who seeks a type rating is holding out to a minimum standard is hardly a professional outlook.

A private pilot who seeks specialized, advanced training, to the same standards required of any ATP applicant, and to the same degree and standard required of any line pilot on any given day, is hardly attempting to meet the minimum.

A private pilot may not have the flight experience to obtain an ATP. Or simply may not desire to do so, never having a need for the certificate.

Are you unprofessional because you don't hold a particular rating? Have you sought out and used a multi engine sea rating. It's a great rating to have; more fun than two barrels of monkeys with no clothes on. But would you find it useful? Probably not. So you haven't sought it out. Likewise, a private pilot may see no need to obtain an ATP certificate. I know pilots who have flown 135 or other commercial duties for much of their careers who never obtained an ATP.

I helped a commercial pilot who had been flying commecially for almost twenty years, obtain his instrument rating last year. He will never fly instruments again; he needed the rating to qualify for a fire card, in order to start flying the tanker he owns, on contracts. It was a hoop to jump through, for him. Never the less, he strived very hard, and performed to the same standard as any other instrument student. He studied hard, he flew well, and passed with flying colors. Was he performing to a minimum standard by flying for 20 years without an instrument rating? I spent the first five years of my commercial flying career without one. Didn't hurt me a whole lot either, and you can bet I don't perform to any minimum standards.

Obtaining a type without a commercial certicate does not smack of laziness. Any more than you are lazy for failing to obtain your glider certification or a multi engine sea rating. Do you need it? No. Will it help you? Probably not. Are you going to go get it? Probably not. I don't know the level of your certification, but the same might be said if you haven't obtained your rating for lighter than air, or rotorcraft, too. There's a great deal to be learned from each of those areas; one is missing out on some valueable education by not obtaining the training. But most don't; it's expensive, and if they'll never use it...

Somehow that apparently doesn't apply to the private pilot who has no need for commercial privileges though, does it? The commercial practical test is nothing more than a private pilot checkride, barely glorified. A private pilot may have no use for the certificate.

Certainly pilots should always be looking to expand their knowledge and understanding. Constant study and growth is necessary. I always recommend that pilots seek additional training and certification. Go for a new level of certification, a new rating; get a type, get a category or class rating. Always be striving for something. For years, I tried to add a new rating every year. I wasn't always able to do it, but most of the time, I was. I then branched out into other types of certification; mechanic, flight engineer, etc.

In this case, we're talking about a private pilot who is seeking additional training and certification. He or she isn't seeking a multi sea rating. He or she isn't seeking a commercial certification. He or she is seeking a type rating; aircraft specific. He or she is seeking specific, professional training to ATP standards, in order to be rated in the aircraft; category, class, and type. This isn't seeking any minimum standard. This is simply applying the privileges that are accorded any level of certification. It's showing a mature attitude; one is seeking additional training and experience.

So many pilots sit on their laurels and don't seek additional training. They don't do anything but meet minimum currency, and often not even that. The private pilot that seeks out a chance to visit flight safety or simuflite to obtain the same training any ATP rated pilot will obtain at those facilities, is not seeking any minimum standard.

To answer the other question posed here, if he or she obtains the type on the private certificate, it is automatically transferred to the commercial certificate, and later to the ATP if he or she desires to obtain it. No further checkrides are necesary, as the pilot has already met the ATP standards for that airplane in accomplishing the type ride.

For those that question why the type rating can be transferred to the ATP without further intervention or testing, the answer is right there; the pilot has already demonstrated the ability to meet the practical test standards at the ATP level...no further retesting necessary when one obtains the ATP certificate.

Turning to the radio issue, I don't know anybody that turns on the radio as they're taking the runway, though I'm sure it happens. I frequently make one call taking the runway, and possibly one departing the pattern if I'm using anything other than a straight out departure...and I've been known to make no calls, too.

I've flown a bunch of airplanes with no electrical system and no radio. Shoot, when I was eighteen I began spraying an ag airpalne that had only a CB radio. We used it to talk to each other when working fields, and it worked well. Aircraft radio? We don't need no stinking aircraft radio...

I don't know about the choices I've made in my career being particularly separative. I've been flying the same functions as most others here, in addition to other duties and assignments for quite a while. I fly in the same environment, often the same equipment. I just don't see that a radio separates traffic. Eyeballs do that.

Every time I hear some yahoo call out "any inbound traffic please advise," I want to get on the radio and whisper, "Just us guys with no radios...thanks!"

Didn't hear anybody inbound? They must not exist!

 

[Ty Webb]

To me, the Commercial represents learning to fly to tighter tolerances and respresents a higher degree of Airmanship.

We can debate this all day, and pull up arcane examples of pilots who were supreme aviators with NO certificate . . . but it is jsut a waste of time.

I guess we just disagree on this point. No biggy.

 

[Loafman]

I got my ATP on the same ride as my first type. Just have the written passed first.

 

[bobbysamd]

Nice avatar, Mr. Loaf!

 

[TurboS7]

You don't need an ATP to get a type rating, but it would only be valid for the type of certificate that it is given on. In other words if I got a DC-3 type rating on my private I couldn't fly a DC-3 as a commercial pilot to spray insects.

 

[sky37d]

Now that would be a sight. A DC-3 low passes on a cornfield. Up and around the wires, and back down. Just a cool thought.

 

[Diesel]

In this case not getting your ATP is just pure lazyness. When all it takes is to go to all AtP"s take the test in two days and your done. Then when you go for your type rating your allready done.

Having a private vs a commercial goes to show that you are willing and able to jump through that extra hoop to get the next rating.

Sure a private pilot might be chuck yeager but the commercial pilot went through the stress and expense of adding to his certificate.

It might not smack of lazyness to get a commercial but getting a commercial does show you had the drive and initiative to get the rating and further your education annnnd be held to a higher standard.

I guess this company has a couple of E110's? That weigh over 12500 so everyone gets a type so that they can fly anytime not just one size of airplane.

I think i might have to buy those suds.

 

[avbug]

Show initiative to whom?

Some people have nothing to prove.

 

[Diesel]

nothing to prove to themselves that's fine.

About the same as saying I don't need to go to college. I learned everything I need to know in highschool.

I didn't learn much in college but it's the little things I learned there that made the experience. Same as going from a private to commercial.

It's one thing to say you can get a commercial liscence anytime you want. To actually get one is another thing.

 

[avbug]

Perhaps one day I shall make it to college, too.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think the 135 reg was read too quickly by a previous poster.

The way I read it is that an ATP is required if the aircraft is turbojet powered (cargo or pax) OR has ten or more passenger seats.

In other words----

Jet: Always need ATP for 135

Prop: ATP req. if 10 or more pax seats pt 135

Clarification anyone?


By the way, earning the comm cert proves very little for multi engine airplanes.

Read the PTS and see how much of a difference you can find between pvt & comm. Not much.

Addition airmanship is covered for a SEL comm, but not if you do a multi as your initial comm cert.

Airmanship is dead anyways. Nobody worries about that crap anymore.