Can you get a type without an ATP?

[chperplt]

Colan Air is giving away type certificates without ATPs on a daily basis. Write them a check for 18 grand and in just a few short days, you too could own that worthless certificate.

 

[SquirrelDog]

Ok

Fact: Our part 135 typed a young lad of 21 years about 1.5 years ago in a Lear 20 series. Ever since he has been flying 135 trips with cargo (not pax) all day and night long.

He got his commercial type in the Lear and is and has been PIC since. This should clear things up, being an exact example in all.

see ya
SD

 

[sky37d]

No, Yes, Yes. You can get a type on a private w/ an instrument rating. Without an ATP you cannot act as PIC in 121 or 135 operations. If you can get the insurance, you can fly your CE500 with a pvt/inst with a CE500 type.

Wow, now I am confused.
I thought commercial was a prerequisite for type in CE500?
I also thought the only jet you can fly without Commercial is Paris Jet, MS-760, which has PP, ME, I as pre-requisites.
I am so confused.

So, If I had a good job, and a bazillion dollars, I could go get my CE500/CE525 Type without doing commercial first? Oh, now I REALLY need to win the lottery.

 

[SATCFI]

Check my reply above, Travolta only has a PP Inst and has several types. Even VFR only on the CE500

 

[sky37d]

Check my reply above, Travolta only has a PP Inst and has several types. Even VFR only on the CE500

How can you be VFR in a CE500. Stay below 18000? I m truly confused

 

[SATCFI]

Don't know, that is what the FAA database showed. Check it out yourself at

http://registry.faa.gov/amquery.asp

 

[sky37d]

That tears it, I'm going to buy a lottery ticket today. No more fuzyy clouids, I'm going for the jet.

 

[avbug]

Under Part 135, the ATP is only required for carriage of passengers in a turbojet airplane. One may fly freight under 135 with only a commercial, or one may fly passengers under IFR in other than a turbojet airplane (King Air, for example) under 135, with only a commercial pilot certificate.

A type rating may be attached to a private pilot certificate, a commercial, or an ATP. Remember that a type rating is only an aircraft-specific authorization. One obtains category and class ratings, and then if necessary a type for a specific aircraft. No ATP is required.

A caveat, however, is that the applicant for a type rating must meet ATP standards to obtain the type rating, as ATP standards are applicable in the performance of the maneuvers necessary to earn the type.

The holder of a private pilot certificate may obtain a type rating, but must still perform to the same ATP standards for the practical test to obtain the rating.

As far as flying turbojet aircraft VFR, why not? During some of the ATC outages in Southern California recently, I made a number of trips VFR into certain locations in a Lear 35A. Repositioning down there from John Wayne to Santa Monica or other locations wasn't permitted under IFR; it was all VFR. Direct arrivals and departures were under IFR, but sometimes with up to six hour delays. Going VFR, or using that flexibility where appropriate, sped things up, helped ATC immeasurably at certain times, and helped hold delays to a minimum. Other than that...it sucked.

 

[sky37d]

Continuing the thought.
If I had a type rating in a CE551, and a CE551S, could I fly myself and my wife IFR, without getting a commercial?

 

[avbug]

Yes. Of course.

 

[Ty Webb]

Continuing the thought.
If I had a type rating in a CE551, and a CE551S, could I fly myself and my wife IFR, without getting a commercial?

Why would you want to?

That's like saying, "Geez, I am going to Vail for a month- should I learn how to ski, or can I just clump up and down the slopes in my hiking boots?

Most pilots strive to develop the highest skill level, not the bare minimum to keep from taking a dirt nap.

If you aren't interested in learning how to operate a jet in the safest and most highly-skilled manner, do us all a favor and stay out of controlled airspace.

It kind of reminds me of the guy who taxies out to the runway at an uncontrolled field and fires up his radio and makes a single call as he's taking the runway.

Is it legal? Yup. Is it smart? Hell, no. He has no idea who is inbound. He has no idea who is in the pattern. No one knows about him until seconds before he's in the air . . . he doesn;t even know if his transmitter is working, but he has made his required radio call.

 

[sky37d]

You are right. Commercial should be done, and I haven't won the lottery yet either.

 

[avbug]

What a ridiculous statement, Ty. Do you suppose that holding a commercial certificate vs. a private pilot certificate makes on any safer? Not hardly. Commercial certification requires just a few more hours, and grants a few more privileges. Private flying is not necessarily unsafe. Let's face it. I know plenty of ATP's with whom I wouldn't send my dog (if I still had her).

Someone who meets the practical test standards for a type rating meets the same standards that would be required of an ATP. There are not private standards vs. ATP standards for a type; it's one standard, and it's the ATP standard. Therefore, one can surmise that one who obtains a type has demonstrated performance to ATP standard, at a minimum.

Do you really suppose that holding a private pilot certificate makes one unsafe? Do you imagine that some great barrier exists above FL180 that requires some greater level of certification for entry?

The fact is that flying a turbojet is easier than flying most any piston airplane. The fact is that flying IFR is easier and more simple than flying VFR. The fact is that flying a turbojet airplane under IFR is about as simple as it gets...are you saying that this is beyond the capability of a pilot because he or she holds a private pilot certificate?

It may surprise you to know that Flight Safety, Simuflite, Simcom, and others handle a number of private pilots every year...pilots who can afford and operate high performance, complex aircraft, and who attend based on mandated sim training.

Stay out of controlled airspace because one has only a private pilot certificate? Rather egocentric, don't you think?

Just how many radio calls do you think someone should make when taking the runway? You're not one of those dingbats that says, "any inbound traffic please advise," are you? I make one radio call, and I go. Perhaps you had better hope you never fly in the same airspace I do, hmmm?

You suggested that one who makes only one call doesn't know if his transmitter is working. Does he know if he makes two calls? Nope.

Does anybody know he's taking off? Sure. Anybody who happens to be watching, and anybody who happens to be listening.

Perhaps this would be better.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberryis starting the left engine, and will shortly be taxiing to runway three five, via taxiways alpha, bravo, Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. Any traffic in the area, please advise.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry has both engines running now, and is taxiing from the ramp area for runway three five, via taxiways alpha, bravo, Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. I am wearing a white shirt with cute little gold epaulets. Any traffic in the area, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on taxiway alpha, headed for Bravo, then Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. My turn-ons include latex, women who paint, and the sounds of broken glass. Any traffic in the area, please advise, and for the love of Pete would somebody give me a radio check and let me know my transciever is working??"

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on taxiway Bravo, gettin real close to Sierra, and the tail end of Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. Iv'e got a gal in Kalamazoo, her name is Fran. Does anybody know the words to My Darling Valentine? I feel great today. Very regular. Any traffic in the area please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is on Taxiway Tango, down by the little rock that's painted white with the airport logo on it. My bad, I forgot to call taxiway Sierra, any traffic. We'll be sitting here for a few minutes while my only passenger, Eric Fishbein, the CEO of a small company located right here in the valley, finishes his soup. Any traffic in the area, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is preparing to take runway three five for departure to the Northwest, headed for Portland, for a twelve o'clock landing. This is it. I mean it this time, if you're out there, advise me; it's almost your last chance."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is really on runway three five this time. Any traffic, stay clear. I'm on the runway. It's mine, I'm using it, you can't land on it. I'm departing the runway at this time using a normal takeoff proceedure, I'm powering up now, and there's probably a really loud sound going on right behind my airplane. Any traffic in my way, please advise."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is half way down the runway, approaching V1, which is my takeoff safety decision speed for all you uneducated private pilots out there. There's no turning back now. Don't cross the end of the runway, cause that's where I'm going. Over."

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry is up and clear. Switching."

"Aaah, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry, this is Whatchamacallit Center. Be advised you've been on Center frequency for the last fifteen minutes..."

Do you really think that a radio replaces see-and-avoid? I surely don't.

 

[TonyC]

ROFL

Perhaps this would be better.

"Podunk area traffic, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry ...

"Aaah, Citation Fish Five X-ray Underwear Dingleberry, this is Whatchamacallit Center. Be advised you've been on Center frequency for the last fifteen minutes..."

Best laugh I've had in a while!

 

[Big Duke Six]

ATP privileges

By Sweptback -

"Not only do you not need an ATP to get a type, but if you get, say, a commercial type and then later get your ATP, the commercial type magically becomes an ATP type."

I always thought that if you got a type on your Commercial, then subsequently earned your ATP, your type still only carried Commercial privileges.

Anyone? I could be the idiot here...

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>I always thought that if you got a type on your Commercial, then subsequently earned your ATP, your type still only carried Commercial privileges.

Yeah, I'd always heard the same thing, but 61.157(d) says that the type rating gets ATP priveliges when you get our ATP. I don't know if this is a change, or the people I was listening to had it wrong all along.

 

[Ty Webb]

Avbug:

I expected I would get some grief from you, given the choices you have made in your career. I don;t mean that as an insult at all, you have a great deal of exprience, but you have certainly chosen a path much different from many of the pilots on this board, and might have a different opinion.

Nevertheless, I stand by everything in my post. I never said that a private pilot certificate was bad; what I said was that a pilot who is looking for the minimum knowlege and training is someone to be avoided, and I mean that. How you personally choose to get to the higher levels of airmanship is up to each pilot, but I'll bet that if I flew with you, it would be pretty evident that you strive to fly the airplane to the best of your abilities, not to the lowest required denominator.

As for the part of my post that describes the lame radio procedures of the less-than-completely-conscious-pilots- I stick to that too. Although your post was quite funny, I was referring to the fact that without their radio on, they have no way of hearing the reports of inbound aircraft .

Sure, a radio isn't even required to operate at most uncontrolled fields, we all know that, but most people I know that regularly fly without radios are a little more attentive to traffic than what I am describing, which is, again, the pilot striving to do the least amount necessary.

I guarantee you that those douche bags who taxi out to the runway and then turn on their radio just before takeoff are not the guys who have fine-tuned their traffic scan. This, to me, is a person who has just pissed away an opportunity to learn about inbound traffic, and to make others aware of his departure, and even check the operational status of his radios, which he might need . . . . . a missed opportunity, that costs nothing, but could save lives.

As I fly with many different captains, some of them will tell me as we take the runway for the first flight of the day, "you can skip the radar, we don;t need it". I always turn it on anyway, and tell them gently, "I like to make sure it's working- we may need it later today". Required? No. But I can tell you a couple of guys whose lives would have been saved if they had spent that two seconds flipping the switch to "on" before departure.

My point, again, is that pilots need to think about being the best, not doing the least. And to me, getting a jet type without bothering to get the Commercial just smacks of laziness and tells me that the individual in question has more money than brains.

And as Mark Twain observed- "No generalization is worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**- including this one" but for the most part, the pilot looking for the training shortcut is one to be avoided, and that was the point of my post.

Breaker, Breaker, c'mon back?

 

[cdog]

Diesel mentioned his buddy getting a type rating in an EMB-110.
I am pretty sure that an EMB-110 doesn't require a type rating, GWs 12,500.

Go get your case of suds.

 

[sky37d]

However Ty

The point is made, if the type rating is to ATP standards, but I'm john travolta, and am NEVER going to "fly the line", or be a CFI, why should I spend the time (note TIME, not money) to earn a commercial. Let alone an ATP. I'm going to perform to ATP standards, I'm just NEVER going to be flying to earn a living.
With most folks in that category. Folks who can afford a Jet for their own personal use. Fly it themselves because they love to fly, it TIME that is important. So why do the time to get a commercial, if you are never going to use it. That person would still be required to do the recurrent training stuff.
There was an article a while back about a guy in his 40's-50's that said, hey I'm going to learn to fly. A year later he was flying a citation, his own. Insurance mandated a co-pilot, and a license is really a license to learn, but the bottom line is this guy was never going to be the pilot for a 135 operation, he bought it for his personal use. I had always wondered how he got to fly it, and now I know.

Thanks to all

 

[varicam]

Diesel mentioned his buddy getting a type rating in an EMB-110.
I am pretty sure that an EMB-110 doesn't require a type rating, GWs 12,500.

Go get your case of suds.

Check out the SFAR 41 modification to the basic airplane which raises the max takeoff weight. An EMB-110 type rating is required for these airplanes unless the MGTOW is restricted to 12,500.