Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Can we stop whining.

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
I guess you care little for written agreements. Remember that when you're the target. I'm sure you won't waste the union's time with that whiny little grievance process.
 
Billy, Billy, Billy. Sleeping dogs bro...


The PIC date thing is dumb. The pay thing....well, that's another issue altogether

"that's another issue..."
 
RTRHD said:
Is this what goes on in a union? All the buzz about what was coming out today. It sounded like a bunch of crybaby stuff to me.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Seniority rules in a union. The company is trying to circumvent the negotiated LOA to give NJI crews "Super-Seniority". NJASAP will not stand for that.

Let's be VERY CLEAR about this. NJASAP has nothing against our soon to be NJI brethren. This is NOT NJA pilots against NJI pilots. This is NetJets management trying to slap every NJASAP pilot in the face.

The funny thing is that they are dangling carrots in the form of leather jackets and years of service tags (which no one seems to know what to do with) hoping that the NJASAP crews are blind to not see what they are attempting. I appreciate the gesture, but not the carrot.

With respects,

Fischman
 
fischman said:
The company is trying to circumvent the negotiated LOA to give NJI crews "Super-Seniority". NJASAP will not stand for that.

Let's be VERY CLEAR about this. NJASAP has nothing against our soon to be NJI brethren. This is NOT NJA pilots against NJI pilots. This is NetJets management trying to slap every NJASAP pilot in the face.

The funny thing is that they are dangling carrots in the form of leather jackets and years of service tags (which no one seems to know what to do with) hoping that the NJASAP crews are blind to not see what they are attempting. I appreciate the gesture, but not the carrot.

With respects,

Fischman
Click to expand...
We have a winner. Enforcing the contract is not whining.
 
This message is for the 5%er's that will most likly NEVER be on the G,
I suspect it's the JUNIOR PIC'S/SIC's that's doing all the whining. I've never heard sooooo many crying BABIES in my life. The WHO'S the PIC is A JOKE. (I want to be the pic, I was here first). This is one of the main reason's why NO ONE wants to be in a UNION.
You guy's think you can jump in a G and go to the other side of the world and deal with All the B.S. that goes with it and do it safely and professional to meet all the customer's need's, With a few month's experience. I'm all for it. I perfer it as a matter of fact. I get paid the same. I'm with the other guy's (what time in the lobby BOSS).
I know for a fact that more than one of the (senior) NJA guy's to include the BBJ guy's, that came over to NJI, had problems getting thru the training. Those guy's may have flown the BBJ international, but ask them how much experience they have doing that type of flying. (Very little from what I hear, They didn't go anywhere, the company had to FIND work for the plane, They sat for month's at a time and never moved.) Yes with the proper training anyone can do it, No one is trying to pull something over on the union, we are trying to be professional and safe!!!!!
So for all you want to be a G pilots, stop causing problems for the company and just do YOUR job.
 
Dinger, for the company to go to war on this issue was just stupid. Yea, our FOM says date of G-IV upgrade but the contract says DOH. We all knew the contract would be controlling after final notice day so why did they stir the pot? The fleets and positions are stagnant or even shrinking so by November, everyone in the G fleet has more than enough training and experience to get it done so why create the drama? I'm getting paid the same and with the closure of the NOC this morning, the other guy can deal with the B S from CMH and I'll happily load the bags.
 
Last edited:
All u peeps that voted yes for IBB. Enjoy the broomstick up the ass now. You are getting exactly what you voted for. ********************! Enjoy it!

IBB was complete BS and should have never passed the vote with the pilot group.
 
Gut, I hear ya buddy. This was not very smart on their part(company) But I also think the company is trying to make this a safe and professional operation, and NOTHING MORE. Like I said, the one's doing the whinning know nothing about International flying. I have no dog in this fight but I'm allready TIRED of the UNION B.S. and the 5%er's causing trouble in the rank's. Be professional and do your job, and that doesn't include a leather jacket at Netjets. Do what I'm planning on doing, Buy one and be proud of it BUT wear it on your time off.
 
Raj, since we (still) don't have access to the A message boards, we NJI types are largely unaware of the arguments against IBB. You were obviously against it so can you fill me in on why? Honest question.
 
gutshotdraw said:
Raj, since we (still) don't have access to the A message boards, we NJI types are largely unaware of the arguments against IBB. You were obviously against it so can you fill me in on why? Honest question.
Click to expand...

I'll start with a few things I can think of off hand. Givebacks in work rules were the main problem.

Basically the union gave the company everything they wanted as far as scheduling is concerned. I do mean everthing. They did this to get better basing and pay for the SIC's. They gave a small raise to captains but unfortunately the work rules and loss of OT due to day one airline show/go rules have far outweighed the small pay raise we were given. Most of the PIC's have lost money on this deal. Some SIC's actually lost money too because they are not allowed to get by pass pay now with the IBB rules.

Most of the NJA guys aren't interested in the NJA side. IBB was a big part of the seniority list being merged. I think most of the NJA guys didn't look hard enough at this when they voted. Well at this point I don't see how any YES voter can complain. We knew all this BS was going to happen before the IBB vote.

A bunch of pilots lost out on getting their 4 weeks vacation (during year 10) because IBB changed the vacation bidding schedule (you have to complete 10 years of service to get the 4th week) (we hired a ton of pilots in the fall of 2001) (honestly many of those pilots have no idea that they will miss their 4th week of vacation by a month or two yet). On top of that many lost 5 or 6 days vacation due to the vacation bid schedule (although we did get paid for those days we still lost them).

This is just a basic overview of the problem with IBB. I could go on and on about this. The givebacks on scheduling and work rules are really sad. We will never be able to get that stuff back. Its all lost now.

Don't forget that shortly after IBB 2 of the top ranking union members left to go to Managment. Something else that we all could easily see before IBB. I'm convinced that IBB had something to do with this.
 
Last edited:
How does this make any sense???? So if we're going to be one company, then the same rule should apply everywhere. So let's see everytime you bid another aircraft, the clock starts again? Brilliant!!! :rolleyes:
 
wolfpackpilot said:
ESPN GAME DAY is in Boise, ID!!!!


GO BRONCO'S!
Click to expand...


They suck. They could barely beat VT and VT isn't that good.

I hope the Bronco's lose today but it won't matter because they will lose in a big bowl game. In fact they will get blown out in a bowl game against an SEC team or even a slow OSU team.

They couldn't even beat the NC State Wolfpack.

Boise State = Over Rated

Why else would they have to paint their home field blue.

ESPN Gameday used to be a good show until they hired Erin Andrews who knows zilch about football.
 
Last edited:
So what weird and wacky foreign stuff that is mostly only known through experience is a relatively inexperienced PIC going to screw up? If there is an experienced SIC (or SICs on longer flights) there to give hints, do you really expect the PIC to disregard the experienced crew members when it comes to local customs/ procedures? I don't know how things are in the cockpit at NJI, but at NJA at least 99 percent of the pilots I fly with practice something called Crew Resource Management. We talk things through and make educated decisions. Experience has it's place, and it will still be there when the company either follows the contract voluntarily or has an arbitrator force it on them. As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family. Honestly I think the new management is testing us to see what they can get away with and to help decide if they will extend the contact or not. I guess they will find out. Unfortunately it is an expensive test for both the profitability of the company and for labor relations.
 
jtf said:
So what weird and wacky foreign stuff that is mostly only known through experience is a relatively inexperienced PIC going to screw up? If there is an experienced SIC (or SICs on longer flights) there to give hints, do you really expect the PIC to disregard the experienced crew members when it comes to local customs/ procedures? I don't know how things are in the cockpit at NJI, but at NJA at least 99 percent of the pilots I fly with practice something called Crew Resource Management. We talk things through and make educated decisions. Experience has it's place, and it will still be there when the company either follows the contract voluntarily or has an arbitrator force it on them. As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family. Honestly I think the new management is testing us to see what they can get away with and to help decide if they will extend the contact or not. I guess they will find out. Unfortunately it is an expensive test for both the profitability of the company and for labor relations.
Click to expand...

I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.
 
rajflyboy said:
I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.
Click to expand...

An equitable integration process was spelled out in IBB. Whether management chooses to follow the agreed-upon process is an entirely separate issue.
 
jtf said:
As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family.
Click to expand...

I need to clarify this issue since NJASAP is on the wrong side of this one. It is NOT an "extra" raise.

NJI has always been on a Jan 1-Dec 31 calendar. NJA has always been on an Oct 1-Sep 30 calendar. Since Jan 1, NJI pilots have been receiving their regularly scheduled raise for 2010 on their anniversary date which is date of G-IV upgrade for PIC's and DOH for SIC's (they re-set salary review dates to avoid giving two raises in one calendar year--old topic).

Salary amounts for purposes of the "Pay Protection Level" will be frozen next week on Sep 30. The idea was to give the REGULARLY SCHEDULED 2010 raise to the roughly 25% of the NJI pilot group who's review date falls between Sep 30 and Dec 31 so that they will be treated THE SAME as their NJI contemporaries. Then, everybody is square and things proceed according to the salary protection terms of the LOA.

No NJA pilot would be hurt by this plan and it is only FAIR to roughly 25% of the group (yes, yours truly is one of them) whereas this group would be unfairly punished strictly because of the disparity in the way the "fiscal year" was calculated by the two companies.
 
Dirty Dingus said:
Gut, I hear ya buddy. This was not very smart on their part(company) But I also think the company is trying to make this a safe and professional operation, and NOTHING MORE. Like I said, the one's doing the whinning know nothing about International flying. I have no dog in this fight but I'm allready TIRED of the UNION B.S. and the 5%er's causing trouble in the rank's. Be professional and do your job, and that doesn't include a leather jacket at Netjets. Do what I'm planning on doing, Buy one and be proud of it BUT wear it on your time off.
Click to expand...


Oh puh-leeeeze! Would you like to get a ruler out so we can all see who is the most "man" too?

I fly international for NJA. And I've talked with plenty of my friends who fly for NJI. The fact of the matter is, the way we do it at NJA is far harder and more labor intensive (and dumber) than the way it's done at NJI. Every time you cross a fix in a non-radar envrionment (Over the NAT or uncontrolled areas of the world) do you have to record MH, TH, Fuel burned, fuel left, current winds, current temps, drift down altitudes and on and on and on. Not saying any of that is particularly tough, but if you don't do it, then you're int'l flying is EASIER than here at NJA. I'm certain I could handle it in the G-whiz. And if I were PIC due to seniority, and flying with a junior PIC who had more experience in type than me, I'd have no qualms about asking for opinions and help (but relax, I have no desire to fly the G-planes).

As for all the other variables that go into flying to all the places you go at NJI, unless I'm wrong, Netjets handles pretty much everything for you, same as they do for us. And if you get to some third-world country where things start going to crap and not according to the Netjets plan, like pretty much every third-world country, just throw serious tip money at the handlers and whoever and suddenly things are going smoothly again. Not really a big deal.

Not really sure why time in type is so important for who gets listed as PIC. As I said, if you're not listed as the PIC, but have more time in type, I'm 100% certain that none of our guys would have any qualms about asking you for help or advice.

And by the way, I don't think it's a problem to have the other guy listed as the official PIC if you don't want to do it. For my first Hawaii trip, we had the junior PIC listed as THE PIC because I wanted to watch him in action before being the head honcho on those trips. It wasn't a problem to do it that way.

Anyway, bottom line is, most of us don't care who is THE PIC on a flight. As long as the paychecks are appropriate we really could give a rats ass about it. What we DO care very pasionately about, is the company following the CBA, AND the FOM. Heaven help us if a pilot violates the CBA or the FOM, but we should just roll over if the company does it? Since we'll all be on the same CBA and FOM shortly, then those are the rules to be followed. If that means that the more senior guy is the PIC, then so be it.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom