Can ATC Declare Emergency?

[350DRIVER]

Quite sad because technically we are not allowed to provide priority handeling unless its an emergency...

TWR this is Seminole 44Bravo, we just lost an engine.
Seminole 44bravo are you declaring an emergency?
Negative.
Seminole 44bravo roger, left traffic rwy 14, report on the downwind youll be number 10 for the runway.

Above scenario quite unlikely. Majority of controllers understand the difference between "technically" and "reality", be assured "technically" will take a backseat with 99% of the sharp controllers out there when put in a scenario as mentioned in your response.

I sure hope you don't put "technically" before common sense when you are forced with that in real life.

Vector4fun, nice job- I have seen this practice quite often by many controllers, most will extend the helping hand whenever a pilot may be in need.

3 5 0

 

[PropsForward]

...removed...

 

[PropsForward]

Some pilots just don't waant to delcare because of fear of FAA intervention, NTSB stuff, and paper work. Quite sad because technically we are not allowed to provide priority handeling unless its an emergency...

TWR this is Seminole 44Bravo, we just lost an engine.
Seminole 44bravo are you declaring an emergency?
Negative.
Seminole 44bravo roger, left traffic rwy 14, report on the downwind youll be number 10 for the runway.

Yeah, this is unfortunate. While you want a balance between serious emergencies, and emergencies where the pilot is over-reacting, it seems the majority of conversation on this topic is not to declare unless death is imminent and this is unfortunate.



I heard of a CFI that ran scenarios across his students, quizzing them if they would declare in that situation. His efforts were actively discouraging his students from ever declaring except for catastrophic situations. Very unfortunate.

 

[350DRIVER]

Nothing unfortunate about it. If the pilot needs to get the aircraft back on the runway in a rather quickly manner then regardless of whether or not he does declare then the controllers should speed the process up, which usually does take place 99% of the time. Declaring or not, doesn't really matter.. Most controllers will bend over backwards for a pilot that needs the help should he be in a position where he needs to get down asap. It has more to do with common sense, urgency, and doing one's best to aid a pilot who needs help the most. I do not think the above scenario is quite likely as I have previously pointed out. Every single situation that I have seen/heard with regards to inflight problems the controllers diverted all aircraft away and gave the problem aircraft priority regardless of whether or not they have declared the emergency. A few magic words don't mean a whole lot when you look at the big picture. If you need to get down then simply advise atc, cope with the problem, and do your best to get down asap. Not all situations will require you to declare an emergency and it would be foolish to start preaching that any problems one would have then without a second thought he should declare one.

3 5 0

 

[PropsForward]

Nothing unfortunate about it. If the pilot needs to get the aircraft back on the runway in a rather quickly manner then regardless of whether or not he does declare then the controllers should speed the process up, which usually does take place 99% of the time. Declaring or not, doesn't really matter.. Most controllers will bend over backwards for a pilot that needs the help should he be in a position where he needs to get down asap. It has more to do with common sense, urgency, and doing one's best to aid a pilot who needs help the most. I do not think the above scenario is quite likely as I have previously pointed out. Every single situation that I have seen/heard with regards to inflight problems the controllers diverted all aircraft away and gave the problem aircraft priority regardless of whether or not they have declared the emergency. A few magic words don't mean a whole lot when you look at the big picture. If you need to get down then simply advise atc, cope with the problem, and do your best to get down asap. Not all situations will require you to declare an emergency and it would be foolish to start preaching that any problems one would have then without a second thought he should declare one.

3 5 0

Yeah, I agree. The perception of ATC to pickup on the pilots problem and clear the way is great. I'm just saying that a lot of pilots reason for not declaring is a fear of getting in trouble and this has cost a lot of pilots their lives, granted they have most likely put themselves in the emergency they find themself in (like fuel exhaustion) and the issue does need to be addressed with the pilot after they are safely down. Just a real delicate balance.

 

[350DRIVER]

If the circumstances dictate that the situation is indeed an emergency then by all means declare it. The only thing that I am saying is that those magic words aren't going to get the problem aircraft back on the ground any sooner. When human life is hanging in the balance then "fear" of anything else other than death or serious bodily injury or harm shouldn't even be considered or contemplated. The last thing that should ever be on a pilot's mind is the potential of facing possible action against their tickets should they need to declare. Some circumstances and situations dictate it to be a true "emergency", others do not. It is ultimately up to the PIC to make that determination. Anyways, I think the controllers do a superb job handling these situations for the most part and they realize it is better to be down here than up there when something goes sour and south that is not desirable.

ATC will also bend over backwards when you are doing med flights with organs or patients onboard where it is time critical to get to where you need to get to. 99.9% of the time I was cleared direct destination with no delay enroute or upon arrival at the destination airport. Most controllers understand that the dying patient in the back could one day be a family member or that heart or liver that is on it's way could just as easily be for one of their family members.

 

[dseagrav]

What happens if ATC himself has an emergency? Fire in the cab, coffeemaker failure, etc?

 

[Vector4fun]

Hey, you don't want to see me vector without coffee. It aint pretty.....

 

[minitour]

Hey, you don't want to see me vector without coffee. It aint pretty.....

Oh, that's easy. Just start giving out holding instructions...

-mini

 

[skydiverdriver]

Yes they can, and so can your dispatcher.

 

[avbug]

We ran into that in southern california the year before last, during the series of fires that ran from south of Sand Diego to past Santa Barbara. SoCal abandoned the facility, and we were in and out of there several times a day with no terminal radar. One person at a time on the approach to LAX, etc. Massive traffic backups, and six hour delay getting out of SNA. If you wanted to reposition anywhere down there, it was VFR, and the visibility was far from it. Lots of private pilots who decided that they were going to go fly anyway...who was going to catch them?

In that emergency situation, ATC had abandoned their facility due to the fire threat...and to be honest, I don't think I ever truly appreciated just what an impact ATC had down there until their services were gone.

 

[PropsForward]

Hey, you don't want to see me vector without coffee. It aint pretty.....

Any kewl penalty vector stories????

 

[minitour]

Any kewl penalty vector stories????

ooh ooh ooooooh new forum, I love hearing about things ATC does to piss off pilots...

-mini

*edit*

hmmm....another new one, things pilots do to piss ATC off that makes them to stuff that piss pilots off....

 

[dseagrav]

We ran into that in southern california the year before
last, during the series of fires that ran from south of San Diego to
past Santa Barbara. SoCal abandoned the facility, and we were in and
out of there several times a day with no terminal radar. One person at a
time on the approach to LAX, etc. Massive traffic backups,and six
hour delay getting out of SNA. If you wanted to reposition anywhere
down there, it was VFR, and the visibility was far from it.Lots of private
pilots who decided that they were going to go fly anyway...who
was going to catch them?

In that emergency situation, ATC had abandoned their facility due to the
fire threat...and to be honest, I don't think I ever truly appreciated just
what an impact ATC had down there until their services were gone.

So wait, if ATC abandons ship, all that controlled airspace magically
becomes uncontrolled? I was under the impression it stayed controlled
and anyone who wanted in was just S.O.L. But then again, I haven't been
in controlled airspace yet, but I was close! ^_^

 

[pilotman2105]

So wait, if ATC abandons ship, all that controlled airspace magically
becomes uncontrolled? I was under the impression it stayed controlled
and anyone who wanted in was just S.O.L. But then again, I haven't been
in controlled airspace yet, but I was close! ^_^

Here's my understanding of what went down:

When Socal closed, Socal approach was no longer were controlling theirairspace. The airspace is normally delegated to Socal approachfrom the center that has jurisdiction of that area. That airspacewas given back to the center(s). Center radar may not have hadcoverage close to the ground (ie: below a few thousand feet AGL). Since they couldn't operate using radar separation they had to resortto non-radar separation, which has a much less amount of traffic thatit can accomodate in a given period.

How'd I do?

 

[avbug]

If ATC isn't available, the airspace still remains controlled airspace. (in most cases). Some airspace does change classes, such as D to E. Some airspace reverts to G.

In the case of the activities in the southern republik of Kalifornia, center took over, but with limited functions. It was more like operating in a non radar environment.

 

[minitour]

...
How'd I do?

Wonderful. Controlled is controlled is controlled. Centercontrols is, they just delegate approach to "this" airspace here andthat there, etc.

basically

-mini

 

[JediNein]

Not sure about the other FAA regions, but here in the Northeast whenever a pilot obtains any type of "priority handling" by ATC, the flight has been automatically declared an emergency by ATC. Those magic "I declare" words need not be uttered by anyone.

So on climbout on a X/C flight, before you ask tower for a return to the runway due to a minor vibration you would like to check out on the ground, and tower gives you priority handling by telling the C-150 on downwind to continue, clearing you for landing, make sure you REALLY need to be on the front of the line. You will be getting contacted by a possibly not so friendly fed. Guaranteed. And if you tell him there was some type of mechanical problem, your A&P is next in line.

I find A&Ps, especially IAs, are perfectly willing to deal with the FAA. It's a part of the job! If yours is scared of the FAA, find a new mechanic.

When I worked at a repair station, half of our mail was inbound/outbound to the local FSDO for Form 337s. We talked to our inspectors almost on a daily basis. Sometimes we had to correct the inspectors as to the proper procedure or policy for whatever repair, sometimes they corrected us. There is a lot more give and take on the airworthiness side of the house.

So, after an emergency caused by a mechanical failure, my airframe mechanic, pilot, and instructor certificates were on the line. So was my passenger's A&P/IA certificates. Even the A&P/IA that did the last annual on the plane had his certificates on the line. The FAA ASIs reviewed the aircraft's paperwork and determined the two mechanics that had worked on the plane had done their jobs and completed the paperwork properly. While there was a remote possibility that I could have found a missing engine bolt on the preflight, they found that I had conducted a proper preflight which did NOT require our getting out the inspection mirror and conducting an annual. The bolt also could have departed inflight, which they would not expect either of us to have found.

All of us were quite happy to not be filling out crash investigation paperwork.

We were still alive.

That's the bottom line. So what if AFRCC is dragging their feet back to the firehouse like the guys in the credit card commercials and you're meeting with the airport manager and news crews. The absolute worst the FAA can do to do is take away your certificates for a year and fine you some thousand dollars. The plane can kill you, or worse; leave you alive, brain damaged and mostly paralyzed, knowing you killed your passengers.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Vector4fun]

ooh ooh ooooooh new forum, I love hearing about things ATC does to piss off pilots...

-mini

Mini,

Maximum remedium irae mora est


Lucius Annaeus Seneca, De Ira (II, 28)

Roman philosopher and moralist
(4 BC - 65 AD)

 

[minitour]

Mini,

Maximum remedium irae mora est


Lucius Annaeus Seneca, De Ira (II, 28)

Roman philosopher and moralist
(4 BC - 65 AD)

uh...I'll show my lack of knowledge here...

I took two years of Spanish and I could probably ask you "what is the name of the toilet" but that's about it...

no comprendo

-mini