Can a Piper Saratoga be used for 135 IFR flying?

[BluDevAv8r]

Last I heard, the only singles approved for pt. 135 IFR pax flights were the Cessna Caravan, PC-12 and if my memory is correct, the TBM 700. Had a lot to do with them being turbo props.

There are currently several Saratogas flying IFR 135 according to charterhub.com and I know for a fact that the Cirrus SR22 is flying 135 IFR since SATSAir is using them all over the southeast.

-Neal

 

[greed]

I used to fly an older Saratoga for a 135 IFR operator in SOCAL. They are no longer in business but we had two on the certificate.

 

[TGTVS]

Yes Is The Answer, But You Must Be Sure Your Aircraft Has Been In All Compliances With The Manufactures Maintenance Procedures, Ie, Ad' And Especialy Service Bulletins That Most Don't Comply With B/c Its Not Mandatory. Also 2 Vaccum Pumps Usually Must Be Installed Depending On The Fsdo, A Stby Alternating Source, Ie Wind Driven Alternator, And If You Want To Fly It Single Pilot You Need A Three Axis Autopilot.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yes Is The Answer, But You Must Be Sure Your Aircraft Has Been In All Compliances With The Manufactures Maintenance Procedures, Ie, Ad' And Especialy Service Bulletins That Most Don't Comply With B/c Its Not Mandatory. Also 2 Vaccum Pumps Usually Must Be Installed Depending On The Fsdo, A Stby Alternating Source, Ie Wind Driven Alternator, And If You Want To Fly It Single Pilot You Need A Three Axis Autopilot.

2 vac pumps? The airplane doesn't even have a vacuum pump. It is all electrical with 2 alternators and of course, has an autopilot. Remember, this aircraft is brand new...right out of the factory.

-Neal

 

[bama*pilot]

since when did piper put 2 alternators on a saratoga?

 

[sqwkvfr]

Since they started not installing vacuum systems on Saras-6Xs equipped with Flightmax.

Check out their brochure.

 

[siegelaviation]

Yes Is The Answer, But You Must Be Sure Your Aircraft Has Been In All Compliances With The Manufactures Maintenance Procedures, Ie, Ad' And Especialy Service Bulletins That Most Don't Comply With B/c Its Not Mandatory. Also 2 Vaccum Pumps Usually Must Be Installed Depending On The Fsdo, A Stby Alternating Source, Ie Wind Driven Alternator, And If You Want To Fly It Single Pilot You Need A Three Axis Autopilot.

That isn't totally true about Service Bulletins. If it is in your Opspecs that you must follow them, then yes, by all means do every single SB that comes along. They aren't in my OpSpecs, so I don't have to do them. However, I do choose to do MOST of them.

 

[siegelaviation]

2 vac pumps? The airplane doesn't even have a vacuum pump. It is all electrical with 2 alternators and of course, has an autopilot. Remember, this aircraft is brand new...right out of the factory.

-Neal

If it is all electric, no Vacuum pumps needed. Just a standby alternator.

 

[siegelaviation]

Michael,

Thank you for the information. I just went through your web page. Looks like you have a really nice business in MCI. If you aren't defraying costs let alone making money with that 135 op, how come you are still in operation? Trust me, I'm not going to advocate my friend go forward with this unless the numbers at least allow him to eat into his fixed costs on the airplane. Thanks again for the info...

-Nea

I do have a pretty good business because I have diversified. By being in the training, charter, management, and sales markets, I don't have to rely on one thing (ie charter) to make a buck. If the charter is slow, I am usually training someone. If the training is slow, I pick up some charters or sell some aircraft.

Money CAN be made with 135 ops, but it is tough. The toughest part is buying the plane and then trying to get your 135 Certificate. You need the plane first, then you go to the FSDO. Count on at least 6 months to a year or more to get your Cert depending on the FSDO. That is a long time to be floating an aircraft loan and insurance.

Your friend's problem is going to be insurance. New planes are great, but they carry high hull values. Most customers will choose a similarly priced Seneca II or III over a New Saratoga. The direct operating costs (fuel and oil) are close, but those aircraft have lower hull values, so less insurance cost, therefore less cost passed onto the consumer.

Feel free to shoot me an email or call if you want to talk further.

Michael

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I do have a pretty good business because I have diversified. By being in the training, charter, management, and sales markets, I don't have to rely on one thing (ie charter) to make a buck. If the charter is slow, I am usually training someone. If the training is slow, I pick up some charters or sell some aircraft.

Money CAN be made with 135 ops, but it is tough. The toughest part is buying the plane and then trying to get your 135 Certificate. You need the plane first, then you go to the FSDO. Count on at least 6 months to a year or more to get your Cert depending on the FSDO. That is a long time to be floating an aircraft loan and insurance.

Your friend's problem is going to be insurance. New planes are great, but they carry high hull values. Most customers will choose a similarly priced Seneca II or III over a New Saratoga. The direct operating costs (fuel and oil) are close, but those aircraft have lower hull values, so less insurance cost, therefore less cost passed onto the consumer.

Feel free to shoot me an email or call if you want to talk further.

Michael

Thanks Michael for the detailed note. Your response was sort of what I imagined it would be. After getting some insurance quotes today, I see exactly what you are talking about. I am hearing numbers in the $20,000 range for a $600,000 Saratoga for a 135 IFR operation. That is definitely a lot of extra fixed cost to be lugging around when the non-135 insurance quote was around $7,000. An incremental $13,000 spread out over 300 hours would be around $43/hour. Eek. But that sort of makes me wonder what a light jet costs insurance-wise for charter operations. How are those $1.5 to $2.5 million VLJ's going to fare? Etc.

-Neal

 

[Andrew_VT]

what about the DA42?

I think the new Diamond twin-star would be the perfect small-end 135 pax plane. Decent speeds on exceptional operating costs (130hp turbo diesels) and 2 engines to make the pax and FSDO happy. Cheaper than a new 'Toga.

Oh and for a great laugh at the Eclipse 500 scam/disaster check out this blog written by one engineers of the first Lear. Thread hijack i know...sorry.
http://eclipseaviationcritic.blogspot.com/

 

[pkunzip66]

The company I fly for has a P-210 for 135 operations. If you don't know the P-210 is a C-210 just pressurized. What we have on that plane is a engine driven vaccum, electical driven vaccum, alternator, wind driven aleternator (RAT), 3 axis auto pilot. I really like flying the plane especially since it is pressurized and you have a lot more options to get over weather and take advantage of the winds when you can. I would recommend getting something pressurized for sure. We also have a seneca III and not much of a fan of flying that since there is little options on being able to get high unless you have plenty of oxygen on board. The speed between the 210 and seneca are almost exact. The Seneca has about a 5-10 kt TAS advantage but burns less gas.

 

[GoingHot]

The Seneca has about a 5-10 kt TAS advantage but burns less gas.

Seneca burns less gas than a 210? You must have Briggs and Statton engines on that Seneca?

 

[pkunzip66]

Cruise on the 210 is about 17 gals/ hour. Seneca 20-21 gals/ hour.

 

[siegelaviation]

Seneca burns less gas than a 210? You must have Briggs and Statton engines on that Seneca?

Where can I pick up those Briggs and Stratton engines for my Seneca II? I just got last months fuel bill.YIKES!!!!!!!!!

I run my plane now higher than 65%, 55% if I can, 45% if I have a hell of a tailwind. At the worst, fuel burn is 24gph. At the best, I can squeek it down to 14-16gph.