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Can 60+ F.E.'s go back to the captain seat?

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Archer38416

Archer38416

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2005
Posts
45
Not sure if this has been answered or discussed. I thought this question would be appropriate in the cargo section since there are more flight engineers than major airlines.

I know the age 65 rule is not retroactive, but what if a pilot retired from the left seat at age 60 (before age 65 passed) and bid down to a flight engineer position. Since that pilot hasn't technically retired is it possible for him/her to bid back to captain (assuming still below age 65)?
 
Not at the same company. I see nothing wrong with a different company who might hire direct on the seat
 
The way I read it they can. The wording is something to the effect of a crew member in a required crew member seat can bid back to the left seat. So in other words a herpes S/O as long as they never left the senioity list can bid back to the left seat. That is also how WOA is looking at things and they are making plans to bring several back to the left seat. Also the bottom 8-10 newly awarded Captains were cancelled. It sucks to be one of those guys....
 
If their seniority can hold it, they can bid it. There will be backward movement.
 
MD11Drvr said:
The way I read it they can. The wording is something to the effect of a crew member in a required crew member seat can bid back to the left seat. So in other words a herpes S/O as long as they never left the senioity list can bid back to the left seat. That is also how WOA is looking at things and they are making plans to bring several back to the left seat. Also the bottom 8-10 newly awarded Captains were cancelled. It sucks to be one of those guys....
Click to expand...

What is a herpes S/O?
 
I hope...

I hope I live long enough to see how many of the "younger crowd" are willing to "step aside" at age 60 so their fellow flyers can have their day in the sun. I am not an authority on aging,but I think many of you will be pleasantly surprised at how well you feel and are able to perform at age 60. However: you may have the same problem I am experiencing...
How the hell did I get to be 60? I was just 50 a few birthdays ago....LOL
 
Flyer8 said:
I hope I live long enough to see how many of the "younger crowd" are willing to "step aside" at age 60 so their fellow flyers can have their day in the sun. I am not an authority on aging,but I think many of you will be pleasantly surprised at how well you feel and are able to perform at age 60. However: you may have the same problem I am experiencing...
How the hell did I get to be 60? I was just 50 a few birthdays ago....LOL
Click to expand...


You know I do not mind as much about it all as some seem to. My biggest concern is companies will entice crews with pay increses to let them change the CBA to reflect age 65 thus causing large financial looses to your retirmnet fund if you go at age 60. For the last 50+/- years we have all known what the retiremant age was and if some want to work longer then so be it but we can not let the CBA's be changed. I would have liked to see some sort of compromise that over 60 would go to the right seat or something. But the reality is the Majors are not affected by this as they have very few if any FE's anymore. But it has turned the ACMI's operating older aircraft on thier ear and will cause major financial and moral costs..............
 
Good thought!

We are very concerned about the issues you brought up and are going to work hard to prevent management from changing the rules..As to going back to the left seat from the FE seat,I don't think that will happen at our company. We had only one Capt. that was hired as a PFE before the age changed and he went to the bottom of the PFE seniority list,{we have two separate master seniority lists)but retained longevity for pay and vacation...We do have a PFE upgrade policy that may allow him to go to the right seat if they ever get down to his number. Going straight back to the left seat doesn't seem to be an option as he is no longer on a pilot seniority list. At least that's the way I see it,but God only knows what interpretations a couple of lawyers may come up with.
 
Just cause Age 60 is now 65 doesn't mean the company has to have a vacancy bid...

When the company needs more CA's then the 60+ can bid for and if their seniorty can hold it... then they can go to left seat recurrent...



It's like a fire code... the building holds 500 people at the party... they left... and when someone decides to leave then they can come back in...
 
Who knows?

I would agree with you if your company has only one master seniority list .One of the conditions of being hired as a PFE in our company was to relinquish your position on the pilot's bid seniority list.I just don't see how they could go from the bottom of a separate FE list back to the original position on a pilot seniority list.The example I cited was that he has 55 FE's senior to him. Even if he did manage an upgrade from FE to FO,he would go to the bottom of the FO list and still have 55 FO's senior to him before he would get a shot at the left seat again. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
 
Flyer8 said:
I would agree with you if your company has only one master seniority list .One of the conditions of being hired as a PFE in our company was to relinquish your position on the pilot's bid seniority list.I just don't see how they could go from the bottom of a separate FE list back to the original position on a pilot seniority list.The example I cited was that he has 55 FE's senior to him. Even if he did manage an upgrade from FE to FO,he would go to the bottom of the FO list and still have 55 FO's senior to him before he would get a shot at the left seat again. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
Click to expand...


At World we have one seniority list. I am not sure why the company felt they had to cancel the last Captain upgrades and I assume they will reopen a bid to re-alighn things. It will be a major mess for the forseeable future around WOA. At this point we are all along for the ride of lawsuits and tweeks to the law to make everyone or No One happy.....
 
DING! DING! DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!

MD11Drvr said:
You know I do not mind as much about it all as some seem to. My biggest concern is companies will entice crews with pay increses to let them change the CBA to reflect age 65 thus causing large financial looses to your retirmnet fund if you go at age 60. For the last 50+/- years we have all known what the retiremant age was and if some want to work longer then so be it but we can not let the CBA's be changed. I would have liked to see some sort of compromise that over 60 would go to the right seat or something. But the reality is the Majors are not affected by this as they have very few if any FE's anymore. But it has turned the ACMI's operating older aircraft on thier ear and will cause major financial and moral costs..............
Click to expand...
 
Well Capt. Megadeath (Mommy to be).

First of all congrats on the new baby!

I am convinced that the next victim will be our retirement plans in our CBA. I think there would have been big oposition from the major carriers if they (Mgmt) did not see a way to steal more money than before. The majors are not being affected by this change since they have 2 man acft and it saves them from upgrading new Captains and the expenses associated. I am convinced if it was going to cost the Legacies money they have fought and defeated the rule change.............
 
MD11Drvr said:
The majors are not being affected by this change since they have 2 man acft and it saves them from upgrading new Captains and the expenses associated. I am convinced if it was going to cost the Legacies money they have fought and defeated the rule change.............
Click to expand...

I would say it's different, but I wouldn't say the majors are not being affected as much.

Take airlines like CAL or NW for instance. They both had a pretty good amount of age 60 retirements coming up.

What's cheaper? Upgrade the guy who has been on property for 4-6-8 years into the narrow body, or keep the guy the with 20+ years at the wide body rate? Or, the guy coming up on 60 who is is the narrow body, but again maxed out on the pay scale. It's cheaper to put the 4-6-8 year guy in that seat than keep the over 60 guy there. Granted, not all guys that were coming up on 60 were WB CA's.

Also, think about this. How much is the more senior pilot going to cost the company when he bangs out sick vs. the less junior? How much more does it cost the company when the more senior pilot takes his 4-5-6 weeks vacation a year vs. the junior guy with only 2-3-4?

Take a senior pilot maxed out on the payscale widebody type, flying his 2-3 international trips a month. Pull him offline 3 times a year for his training events. Then, take into account his 4-5-6 weeks a year vacation, then throw in the standard 3 sick calls a year. How much does that cost the company vs. the junior guy that is cheaper?

I can believe the airlines didn't fight based on the mentality that they will be able to pay us less because now we will be able to work more to make the loss of associated with a pay cut and pension termination. I can't believe they didn't fight just based on the fact that a senior pilot maxed out on the pay scale costs more than a junior guy who is not.
 
Cargo 360 may have had the first FE to return to the Captains seat on Dec 19th. He moved from the FE to the Captains seat, the Captain (who is CDS qualified) moved to the the FO seat, and I moved to the FE (I to am CDS qualified). This was blessed by our POI and made we made it happen from ORD to ANC.
 
DoJetDriver,

You bring up some interesting points that all seem to have validity. I am looking at it from a point of view I have seen at WOA but that is not to say there are other views just as valid. I do feel this upset is far from over and will take several years for the ill feeling and effects to go away.....................
 
dojetdriver said:
I can believe the airlines didn't fight based on the mentality that they will be able to pay us less because now we will be able to work more to make the loss of associated with a pay cut and pension termination. I can't believe they didn't fight just based on the fact that a senior pilot maxed out on the pay scale costs more than a junior guy who is not.
Click to expand...

Maybe the super-rich corporate elites hold a lot of value in having the pilot workforce severely split on this issue. Maybe they know that the elderly senior pilots will be "management friendly" and less confrontational since they will continue on with their cushy schedules and pay.
 
Draginass said:
Maybe the super-rich corporate elites hold a lot of value in having the pilot workforce severely split on this issue. Maybe they know that the elderly senior pilots will be "management friendly" and less confrontational since they will continue on with their cushy schedules and pay.
Click to expand...

Yep, you can throw that tried and true trick in there too.
 

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