Can 60+ F.E.'s go back to the captain seat?

[dojetdriver]

The majors are not being affected by this change since they have 2 man acft and it saves them from upgrading new Captains and the expenses associated. I am convinced if it was going to cost the Legacies money they have fought and defeated the rule change.............

I would say it's different, but I wouldn't say the majors are not being affected as much.

Take airlines like CAL or NW for instance. They both had a pretty good amount of age 60 retirements coming up.

What's cheaper? Upgrade the guy who has been on property for 4-6-8 years into the narrow body, or keep the guy the with 20+ years at the wide body rate? Or, the guy coming up on 60 who is is the narrow body, but again maxed out on the pay scale. It's cheaper to put the 4-6-8 year guy in that seat than keep the over 60 guy there. Granted, not all guys that were coming up on 60 were WB CA's.

Also, think about this. How much is the more senior pilot going to cost the company when he bangs out sick vs. the less junior? How much more does it cost the company when the more senior pilot takes his 4-5-6 weeks vacation a year vs. the junior guy with only 2-3-4?

Take a senior pilot maxed out on the payscale widebody type, flying his 2-3 international trips a month. Pull him offline 3 times a year for his training events. Then, take into account his 4-5-6 weeks a year vacation, then throw in the standard 3 sick calls a year. How much does that cost the company vs. the junior guy that is cheaper?

I can believe the airlines didn't fight based on the mentality that they will be able to pay us less because now we will be able to work more to make the loss of associated with a pay cut and pension termination. I can't believe they didn't fight just based on the fact that a senior pilot maxed out on the pay scale costs more than a junior guy who is not.

 

[unwashed]

Cargo 360 may have had the first FE to return to the Captains seat on Dec 19th. He moved from the FE to the Captains seat, the Captain (who is CDS qualified) moved to the the FO seat, and I moved to the FE (I to am CDS qualified). This was blessed by our POI and made we made it happen from ORD to ANC.

 

[MD11Drvr]

DoJetDriver,

You bring up some interesting points that all seem to have validity. I am looking at it from a point of view I have seen at WOA but that is not to say there are other views just as valid. I do feel this upset is far from over and will take several years for the ill feeling and effects to go away.....................

 

[Draginass]

I can believe the airlines didn't fight based on the mentality that they will be able to pay us less because now we will be able to work more to make the loss of associated with a pay cut and pension termination. I can't believe they didn't fight just based on the fact that a senior pilot maxed out on the pay scale costs more than a junior guy who is not.

Maybe the super-rich corporate elites hold a lot of value in having the pilot workforce severely split on this issue. Maybe they know that the elderly senior pilots will be "management friendly" and less confrontational since they will continue on with their cushy schedules and pay.

 

[dojetdriver]

Maybe the super-rich corporate elites hold a lot of value in having the pilot workforce severely split on this issue. Maybe they know that the elderly senior pilots will be "management friendly" and less confrontational since they will continue on with their cushy schedules and pay.

Yep, you can throw that tried and true trick in there too.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Well Capt. Megadeath (Mommy to be).

First of all congrats on the new baby!

I am convinced that the next victim will be our retirement plans in our CBA.

Thanks!

I agree with you 110%. Few will benefit and many will be screwed for years to come.

 

[Jetlaggy]

DoJetDiver,

You are leaving out the savings the company is getting by not having to pay out retirements.

 

[Phaedrus]

Company losses:
-Costlier crew force composition
-Less productivity (sick, vacation, etc)
-Scheduling complexity (over/under)
Company gains:
-Less costly retirement payouts (life expectancy)
-Massive leverage in future negotiations
-Divisive crew force

You can bet that if it were a net negative for the companies there would've been a fight to maintain 60.

 

[Jolly]

I would say it's different, but I wouldn't say the majors are not being affected as much.

Take airlines like CAL or NW for instance. They both had a pretty good amount of age 60 retirements coming up.

What's cheaper? Upgrade the guy who has been on property for 4-6-8 years into the narrow body, or keep the guy the with 20+ years at the wide body rate? Or, the guy coming up on 60 who is is the narrow body, but again maxed out on the pay scale. It's cheaper to put the 4-6-8 year guy in that seat than keep the over 60 guy there. Granted, not all guys that were coming up on 60 were WB CA's.

Also, think about this. How much is the more senior pilot going to cost the company when he bangs out sick vs. the less junior? How much more does it cost the company when the more senior pilot takes his 4-5-6 weeks vacation a year vs. the junior guy with only 2-3-4?

Take a senior pilot maxed out on the payscale widebody type, flying his 2-3 international trips a month. Pull him offline 3 times a year for his training events. Then, take into account his 4-5-6 weeks a year vacation, then throw in the standard 3 sick calls a year. How much does that cost the company vs. the junior guy that is cheaper?

I can believe the airlines didn't fight based on the mentality that they will be able to pay us less because now we will be able to work more to make the loss of associated with a pay cut and pension termination. I can't believe they didn't fight just based on the fact that a senior pilot maxed out on the pay scale costs more than a junior guy who is not.

Actually at the Legacies most of the remaining F/Os have already reached the top of the longevity scale so the pay they would receive as Captain would be exactly the same as the Captain they are replacing with the only difference the added cost of training.

The 4-6-8 year Captain no longer exists at the Legacies and wont for at least another 5 years now.