Can 60+ F.E.'s go back to the captain seat?

[Archer38416]

Not sure if this has been answered or discussed. I thought this question would be appropriate in the cargo section since there are more flight engineers than major airlines.

I know the age 65 rule is not retroactive, but what if a pilot retired from the left seat at age 60 (before age 65 passed) and bid down to a flight engineer position. Since that pilot hasn't technically retired is it possible for him/her to bid back to captain (assuming still below age 65)?

 

[countbat]

Not at the same company. I see nothing wrong with a different company who might hire direct on the seat

 

[MD11Drvr]

The way I read it they can. The wording is something to the effect of a crew member in a required crew member seat can bid back to the left seat. So in other words a herpes S/O as long as they never left the senioity list can bid back to the left seat. That is also how WOA is looking at things and they are making plans to bring several back to the left seat. Also the bottom 8-10 newly awarded Captains were cancelled. It sucks to be one of those guys....

 

[Phaedrus]

If their seniority can hold it, they can bid it. There will be backward movement.

 

[OrionFE]

The way I read it they can. The wording is something to the effect of a crew member in a required crew member seat can bid back to the left seat. So in other words a herpes S/O as long as they never left the senioity list can bid back to the left seat. That is also how WOA is looking at things and they are making plans to bring several back to the left seat. Also the bottom 8-10 newly awarded Captains were cancelled. It sucks to be one of those guys....

What is a herpes S/O?

 

[Archer38416]

What is a herpes S/O?

I would assume its an engineer of the age 60 who was once a captain.

Anyone know what G.R.O.P.E. stands for?

Greedy old retired pilot engineer!

 

[MD11Drvr]

What is a herpes S/O?

Like Herpes they just won't go away at 60.

 

[Flyer8]

I hope...

I hope I live long enough to see how many of the "younger crowd" are willing to "step aside" at age 60 so their fellow flyers can have their day in the sun. I am not an authority on aging,but I think many of you will be pleasantly surprised at how well you feel and are able to perform at age 60. However: you may have the same problem I am experiencing...
How the hell did I get to be 60? I was just 50 a few birthdays ago....LOL

 

[MD11Drvr]

I hope I live long enough to see how many of the "younger crowd" are willing to "step aside" at age 60 so their fellow flyers can have their day in the sun. I am not an authority on aging,but I think many of you will be pleasantly surprised at how well you feel and are able to perform at age 60. However: you may have the same problem I am experiencing...
How the hell did I get to be 60? I was just 50 a few birthdays ago....LOL

You know I do not mind as much about it all as some seem to. My biggest concern is companies will entice crews with pay increses to let them change the CBA to reflect age 65 thus causing large financial looses to your retirmnet fund if you go at age 60. For the last 50+/- years we have all known what the retiremant age was and if some want to work longer then so be it but we can not let the CBA's be changed. I would have liked to see some sort of compromise that over 60 would go to the right seat or something. But the reality is the Majors are not affected by this as they have very few if any FE's anymore. But it has turned the ACMI's operating older aircraft on thier ear and will cause major financial and moral costs..............

 

[Flyer8]

Good thought!

We are very concerned about the issues you brought up and are going to work hard to prevent management from changing the rules..As to going back to the left seat from the FE seat,I don't think that will happen at our company. We had only one Capt. that was hired as a PFE before the age changed and he went to the bottom of the PFE seniority list,{we have two separate master seniority lists)but retained longevity for pay and vacation...We do have a PFE upgrade policy that may allow him to go to the right seat if they ever get down to his number. Going straight back to the left seat doesn't seem to be an option as he is no longer on a pilot seniority list. At least that's the way I see it,but God only knows what interpretations a couple of lawyers may come up with.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just cause Age 60 is now 65 doesn't mean the company has to have a vacancy bid...

When the company needs more CA's then the 60+ can bid for and if their seniorty can hold it... then they can go to left seat recurrent...



It's like a fire code... the building holds 500 people at the party... they left... and when someone decides to leave then they can come back in...

 

[Flyer8]

Who knows?

I would agree with you if your company has only one master seniority list .One of the conditions of being hired as a PFE in our company was to relinquish your position on the pilot's bid seniority list.I just don't see how they could go from the bottom of a separate FE list back to the original position on a pilot seniority list.The example I cited was that he has 55 FE's senior to him. Even if he did manage an upgrade from FE to FO,he would go to the bottom of the FO list and still have 55 FO's senior to him before he would get a shot at the left seat again. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

 

[MD11Drvr]

I would agree with you if your company has only one master seniority list .One of the conditions of being hired as a PFE in our company was to relinquish your position on the pilot's bid seniority list.I just don't see how they could go from the bottom of a separate FE list back to the original position on a pilot seniority list.The example I cited was that he has 55 FE's senior to him. Even if he did manage an upgrade from FE to FO,he would go to the bottom of the FO list and still have 55 FO's senior to him before he would get a shot at the left seat again. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

At World we have one seniority list. I am not sure why the company felt they had to cancel the last Captain upgrades and I assume they will reopen a bid to re-alighn things. It will be a major mess for the forseeable future around WOA. At this point we are all along for the ride of lawsuits and tweeks to the law to make everyone or No One happy.....

 

[capt. megadeth]

DING! DING! DING!

WE HAVE A WINNER!

You know I do not mind as much about it all as some seem to. My biggest concern is companies will entice crews with pay increses to let them change the CBA to reflect age 65 thus causing large financial looses to your retirmnet fund if you go at age 60. For the last 50+/- years we have all known what the retiremant age was and if some want to work longer then so be it but we can not let the CBA's be changed. I would have liked to see some sort of compromise that over 60 would go to the right seat or something. But the reality is the Majors are not affected by this as they have very few if any FE's anymore. But it has turned the ACMI's operating older aircraft on thier ear and will cause major financial and moral costs..............

 

[MD11Drvr]

Well Capt. Megadeath (Mommy to be).

First of all congrats on the new baby!

I am convinced that the next victim will be our retirement plans in our CBA. I think there would have been big oposition from the major carriers if they (Mgmt) did not see a way to steal more money than before. The majors are not being affected by this change since they have 2 man acft and it saves them from upgrading new Captains and the expenses associated. I am convinced if it was going to cost the Legacies money they have fought and defeated the rule change.............