Calling ALL CFI's ....Double I's and all...

[AC560]

Flaps up AFTER clearing the runway. Unless it's a short-field landing. Retracting flaps transfers AC weight from the wings to the wheels where braking will have a greater effect.

FAA-H-8083-3A (most recent version of Airplane Flying Handbook which most examiner types look at as a bible) removes the previous suggestion that flaps should be retracted during a short field landing. If the POH says otherwise perhaps it would have consideration. I don't see much value in teaching students to do that and agree with the vebiage The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

As a totally unrelated piece of useless information. If you pull of flaps in an AC560 on roll out the nose will shoot up as the elevator gains substantial (scarey) authority. You can keep the nose in the air till about 15-20mph which looks extremely cool in a 747 fashion to on lookers. I wouldn't teach it to a student and while probably not the smartest thing to do, every so often I indulged my guilty pleasure.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

 

[svcta]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

Yes, we probably are, but to train certain procedures just because you happen to be in a fixed-gear trainer at the is a missed opportunity to develop good habits for the future. From before I started officially logging time I have been in the habit of a GUMP check, as an example. Undercarriage down and welded. It got me in the habit early and I do it before every landing (not when in jets, though, it's already covered, though I always double check the gear on short final when it's not my leg). Given the fact that I go from jets at work to single-engine (and usually single-pilot) stuff in my spare time this habit is valuable to me. There's enough stuff to forget as it is......

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground. I used to fly a 520 commander out of a 2000' grass runway (the airplane was based there) and even with all that airplane I would never mess around pulling handles on the landing roll. I would routinely make the turn to our hangar at midfield, too, with only medium braking. I digress..........

Develp habits with your students early. Regardless of their ambitions.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I used to do GUMP checks too, while flying and teaching in fixed gear planes as well. I did so, so I wouldn't forget when I flew something retractable.

As far as retracting them for short-fields, well that was the established technique back when I flew light planes. It was standard to retract flaps during the short field rollout, while applying maximum braking.

Most GA trainers can land on pretty much any strip without retracting flaps. It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced. On some planes (twins, I believe), the examiner wanted you to call out the flap retraction without actually bringing them up.

 

[AC560]

It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced.

No argument from me on that it is a valid theory and discussion. My only point was you do it on a checkride most DPE's are going to fail you and as an overwhelming thought students should be taught to complete the landing, exit the runway, and then perform an after landing check list.

Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

You can if you are solo or if the you are wearing a view limiting device and the other guy is a safety pilot

Interestingly enough you can do it on a flight test which is something I never knew before either (see 91.307).

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground.

The 560A has bungee cords on a metal plate which will keep the gear locked unless the strut is almost completely extended (not sure the techinical term). Ours also had a little pin latch you had to pop out to bring the handle up.

Though I do know of one instance where a mechanic did some high speed taxi tests with the gear in the up handle and collapsed the gear. Not sure if that was because he was cooking fast enough to stretch the gear or it was a failure of the mechanisim.

 

[nosehair]

He says if you leave the flaps in the extended positions during the roll to a stop, it will cause you to skid.......I questioned this.

?? How did you question this?...did you question the instructor? That's what I want to know.

Maybe he is trying to teach you something. What he says is true,.. well, the lowered flaps will cause a slower reduction of lift causing a longer period of roll-out time in transitioning the weight from the wings to the wheels, which could be slippery.

Oh, sure, what everyone is saying about habits is true,..but, in fact, raising the flaps immediately will provide better braking. Fact.

He is either young & inexperienced and has not heard all of the above reasons why you should not raise the flaps on roll-out, or he is old school..really old school, and has not heard all the above reasons.

In the old manual flap 172's (late 50's/early60's), with the long flap handle between the seats, you could gradually ease up the flaps as you braked for max efficiency. But that was a different handle...not like a gear handle on the panel.

 

[brokeflyer]

pulling the gear handle up on the roll will increase braking as well.

 

[CA1900]

It isn't just pilots the FAA thinks it is a pretty good idea as well. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-4of7.pdf

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

 

[AC560]

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

You only fly a B1900 why would anyone including me read what you have to say!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Goose Egg]

The only time I've heard of retracting flaps during the landing roll is if you are doing a short field landing. For normal landing I was taught and taught my students to wait until the aircraft is clear of the runway to "clean up" the airplane.

For what it's worth, I've heard this too. However, in the C-172 (in which I did the majority of my instructing) it takes the electric motors so long to retract the flaps that the airplane was usually stopped before they were fully retracted, and it didn't make much difference in the actual landing roll distance. I could see retracting the flaps at touchdown in a manually actuated system being more effective, but I wouldn't let my students do it... Better to take 50 extra feet of landing roll than hit the wrong lever and retract the landing gear or something like that (if the squat switch was malfunctioning... I guess it could happen.)

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

-Goose

 

[nosehair]

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

 

[Goose Egg]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

That's good to know--I hadn't heard that about the braking with flaps in on a taildragger. All of my tailwheel time is the in the "flapless" variety, so naturally I'd come to the conclusion that it was "footwork" only.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Well, I would agree that the potential for a on-runway gear retraction is probably over-played. I think it's worth at least a thought though. Perhaps if one always visually verified what they were touching, then there wouldn't be much problem at all--just a quick look, that's all it would take.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Agreed.

-Goose

 

[Amish RakeFight]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Sometimes when I'm driving too fast and unexpectedly need to stop really short, I shift my gear from D to N. This helps shorten your stopping distance.

BTW, we used to see how short one could land and still make it off the first turnoff. Fun stuff that hones your skills in pitch and airspeed control.

 

[svcta]

With almost 1000 hours of tailwheel time in a pretty wide variety of types, the only one that I would ever retract the flaps during the landing roll with was the T-6, and then only on short runways. It is a unique airplane, though in a lot of ways in terms of ground handling. And it has split flaps that hang down just matter of inches from the ground, which caused lots of compressibility and kept the wing flying far too long to get the tail pinned effectively if you were trying to brake. I don't know of a single other taildragger that I would choose to do this with.

As a matter of fact, a Super Cub will make a DRAMATIC turn for the barn if you snatch the flaps up during a landing roll. And if you didn't know this going in you could get yourself in to a situation that had your feet/heels working hard to keep you going ahead.

Another good reason to just stay configured until the job is done.

 

[LavMan]

Clean up once you are clear of the runway, crossing the line. That is clear of the runway. At the 121 level, that is what we do, and if we have an observation ride or a line check, and they touch anything before then, slap on the hand! Fly the plane first always! One thing at a time, never be in a hurry. That is what I taught when I instructed, and none of the students I sent on rides, ever had an inspector say anything to the contrary.