Calling ALL CFI's ....Double I's and all...

[brokeflyer]

When you do a flight check the examiner is check that CFI is teachinf properly. When i gove a check ride, I know most of the guys that send me students and I know what to expect from them.

What i meant from my post was if this guy didn't come on here and ask, he woulda kept on doing it and went to his checkride. Maybe he would pass maybe not. I would not pass him for moving the flaps up on the roll.

 

[172driver]

The landing distance in your POH is not predicated upon lifting the flaps up in the landing roll. You shouldn't need any additional braking effectiveness beyond what those numbers give you, so why use a non-published procedure that many experienced pilots say is a bad idea?

 

[ksu_aviator]

First off, don't fire your CFI just because he is wrong on one issue. If every student I had had fired me for being wrong, I'd never have signed anyone off. In fact, there where several instances where I learned something from my students.

With that being said, go do some research for yourself. Check the manufacturer's recommendations, look for Advisory Circulars that cover landings, read the part of the AIM that deals with landings, and see if you can find any regulations on it. When you are done, you will have learned more than the CFI can teach you AND you'll have the information you need to discuss the matter with him.

If he doesn't want to listen to the manufacturer and the FAA, he's probably not going to teach you good habits and it is at that point that you should consider changing instructors.

I've seen lots of people that seem to think that the engineers that designed the airplane and the test pilots that certified the aircraft know less than they do (including certain major operators). I can only say that I know that I'm not smarter than the number crunchers and science geeks when it comes to predicting aircraft performance and anyone that says they are smarter, scares me.

 

[AC560]

why use a non-published procedure that many experienced pilots say is a bad idea?

It isn't just pilots the FAA thinks it is a pretty good idea as well.

After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure may be gradually relaxed to place normal weight on the nosewheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane should be allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

Source

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Great Cornholio said it all.

Flaps up AFTER clearing the runway. Unless it's a short-field landing. Retracting flaps transfers AC weight from the wings to the wheels where braking will have a greater effect. Holding the nose wheel off (along w/increasing the AOA) provides aerodynamic drag which is most effective during the high speed portion of the landing. As speed slows, aerodynamic braking has less of an effect.

 

[AC560]

Flaps up AFTER clearing the runway. Unless it's a short-field landing. Retracting flaps transfers AC weight from the wings to the wheels where braking will have a greater effect.

FAA-H-8083-3A (most recent version of Airplane Flying Handbook which most examiner types look at as a bible) removes the previous suggestion that flaps should be retracted during a short field landing. If the POH says otherwise perhaps it would have consideration. I don't see much value in teaching students to do that and agree with the vebiage The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

As a totally unrelated piece of useless information. If you pull of flaps in an AC560 on roll out the nose will shoot up as the elevator gains substantial (scarey) authority. You can keep the nose in the air till about 15-20mph which looks extremely cool in a 747 fashion to on lookers. I wouldn't teach it to a student and while probably not the smartest thing to do, every so often I indulged my guilty pleasure.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

 

[svcta]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

Yes, we probably are, but to train certain procedures just because you happen to be in a fixed-gear trainer at the is a missed opportunity to develop good habits for the future. From before I started officially logging time I have been in the habit of a GUMP check, as an example. Undercarriage down and welded. It got me in the habit early and I do it before every landing (not when in jets, though, it's already covered, though I always double check the gear on short final when it's not my leg). Given the fact that I go from jets at work to single-engine (and usually single-pilot) stuff in my spare time this habit is valuable to me. There's enough stuff to forget as it is......

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground. I used to fly a 520 commander out of a 2000' grass runway (the airplane was based there) and even with all that airplane I would never mess around pulling handles on the landing roll. I would routinely make the turn to our hangar at midfield, too, with only medium braking. I digress..........

Develp habits with your students early. Regardless of their ambitions.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I used to do GUMP checks too, while flying and teaching in fixed gear planes as well. I did so, so I wouldn't forget when I flew something retractable.

As far as retracting them for short-fields, well that was the established technique back when I flew light planes. It was standard to retract flaps during the short field rollout, while applying maximum braking.

Most GA trainers can land on pretty much any strip without retracting flaps. It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced. On some planes (twins, I believe), the examiner wanted you to call out the flap retraction without actually bringing them up.

 

[AC560]

It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced.

No argument from me on that it is a valid theory and discussion. My only point was you do it on a checkride most DPE's are going to fail you and as an overwhelming thought students should be taught to complete the landing, exit the runway, and then perform an after landing check list.

Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

You can if you are solo or if the you are wearing a view limiting device and the other guy is a safety pilot

Interestingly enough you can do it on a flight test which is something I never knew before either (see 91.307).

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground.

The 560A has bungee cords on a metal plate which will keep the gear locked unless the strut is almost completely extended (not sure the techinical term). Ours also had a little pin latch you had to pop out to bring the handle up.

Though I do know of one instance where a mechanic did some high speed taxi tests with the gear in the up handle and collapsed the gear. Not sure if that was because he was cooking fast enough to stretch the gear or it was a failure of the mechanisim.