Calling ALL CFI's ....Double I's and all...

[nosehair]

He says if you leave the flaps in the extended positions during the roll to a stop, it will cause you to skid.......I questioned this.

?? How did you question this?...did you question the instructor? That's what I want to know.

Maybe he is trying to teach you something. What he says is true,.. well, the lowered flaps will cause a slower reduction of lift causing a longer period of roll-out time in transitioning the weight from the wings to the wheels, which could be slippery.

Oh, sure, what everyone is saying about habits is true,..but, in fact, raising the flaps immediately will provide better braking. Fact.

He is either young & inexperienced and has not heard all of the above reasons why you should not raise the flaps on roll-out, or he is old school..really old school, and has not heard all the above reasons.

In the old manual flap 172's (late 50's/early60's), with the long flap handle between the seats, you could gradually ease up the flaps as you braked for max efficiency. But that was a different handle...not like a gear handle on the panel.

 

[brokeflyer]

pulling the gear handle up on the roll will increase braking as well.

 

[CA1900]

It isn't just pilots the FAA thinks it is a pretty good idea as well. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-4of7.pdf

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

 

[AC560]

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

You only fly a B1900 why would anyone including me read what you have to say!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Goose Egg]

The only time I've heard of retracting flaps during the landing roll is if you are doing a short field landing. For normal landing I was taught and taught my students to wait until the aircraft is clear of the runway to "clean up" the airplane.

For what it's worth, I've heard this too. However, in the C-172 (in which I did the majority of my instructing) it takes the electric motors so long to retract the flaps that the airplane was usually stopped before they were fully retracted, and it didn't make much difference in the actual landing roll distance. I could see retracting the flaps at touchdown in a manually actuated system being more effective, but I wouldn't let my students do it... Better to take 50 extra feet of landing roll than hit the wrong lever and retract the landing gear or something like that (if the squat switch was malfunctioning... I guess it could happen.)

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

-Goose

 

[nosehair]

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

 

[Goose Egg]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

That's good to know--I hadn't heard that about the braking with flaps in on a taildragger. All of my tailwheel time is the in the "flapless" variety, so naturally I'd come to the conclusion that it was "footwork" only.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Well, I would agree that the potential for a on-runway gear retraction is probably over-played. I think it's worth at least a thought though. Perhaps if one always visually verified what they were touching, then there wouldn't be much problem at all--just a quick look, that's all it would take.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Agreed.

-Goose

 

[Amish RakeFight]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Sometimes when I'm driving too fast and unexpectedly need to stop really short, I shift my gear from D to N. This helps shorten your stopping distance.

BTW, we used to see how short one could land and still make it off the first turnoff. Fun stuff that hones your skills in pitch and airspeed control.

 

[svcta]

With almost 1000 hours of tailwheel time in a pretty wide variety of types, the only one that I would ever retract the flaps during the landing roll with was the T-6, and then only on short runways. It is a unique airplane, though in a lot of ways in terms of ground handling. And it has split flaps that hang down just matter of inches from the ground, which caused lots of compressibility and kept the wing flying far too long to get the tail pinned effectively if you were trying to brake. I don't know of a single other taildragger that I would choose to do this with.

As a matter of fact, a Super Cub will make a DRAMATIC turn for the barn if you snatch the flaps up during a landing roll. And if you didn't know this going in you could get yourself in to a situation that had your feet/heels working hard to keep you going ahead.

Another good reason to just stay configured until the job is done.

 

[LavMan]

Clean up once you are clear of the runway, crossing the line. That is clear of the runway. At the 121 level, that is what we do, and if we have an observation ride or a line check, and they touch anything before then, slap on the hand! Fly the plane first always! One thing at a time, never be in a hurry. That is what I taught when I instructed, and none of the students I sent on rides, ever had an inspector say anything to the contrary.

 

[CA1900]

You only fly a B1900 why would anyone including me read what you have to say!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:laugh:

Not anymore... but I do miss the ol' bird sometimes. Until I want a cup of coffee or need a bathroom-- then I don't miss it so much!

 

[VW Pilot]

To Nosehair: Well he's not an old guy...about 32 years old..He has about 800HRS......This is a 1982 Piper warrior...As I said before, I do try to understand that there may be some reason why he is stressing this. The FAA says, cleanup after crossing the line and safely stopped. After reading all the posts, seems to me that he has learned to fly some other plane that it might be necessary to retract the flaps on the landing roll and might think that this could apply to light trainers as well. I have not fired the guy either. You asked how I questioned this. Well I posted to see if anyone else was teaching this and could come up with some valid reasons for this procedure or what is now sort of like a technique and explain what he couldn't.....by the way thanks to everyone for answering. This info is greatly appreciated and if there is more..keep it coming.

 

[avbug]

Retracting flaps upon landing is a common technique I frequently use in some aircraft...particularly some conventional gear aircraft and when landing light airplanes in a crosswind or on rough fields. It's not something I teach to a primary student, but it's a valid technique and an appropriate one.

And yes, it works just fine in a husky or super cub.

It's standard practice for me, and most others I know, in ag aircraft; as soon as the mains are on the ground I retract the flaps. This allows the tailwheel to settle so I can get reverse and get slowed down without having to depend on the brakes for other than steering.

Retracting flaps after landing in a crosswind is also a useful technique for putting weight on the wheels faster and reducing the tendency to weathervane, especially in crosswinds that approach the aerodynamic capabilities of the airplane. I've found this to be especially true when landing a conventional gear airplane in a strong crosswind, and have found it necessary at times just to get the tail down in order to keep from groundlooping into the wind as rudder authority begins do die, as one slows down.

The flaps are tools to be used, and extended and retracted, as necessary.

In low altitude maneuvering in ag type aircraft, it's not uncommon to apply flaps as one enters a turn and retract them as one rolls out. Use flaps when you need them. Don't get tied into hard and fast rules about extention and retraction, because the "rules" vary with the type of aircraft, type of operation, and the conditions under which both are subject, at any given time.

 

[VW Pilot]

I talked again with him on this subject...Him being my Instructor. And he too uses this technique when flying Super Cubs...I found out he tows banners too.
Thanks for the explanation. Now that I understand what it's all about and that you do not teach this in your primary......

 

[svcta]

I did a lot of things towing banners that I wouldn't tell a primary student to do as standard policy. I've used the technique in Super Cubs, too, as indicated, but it does cause the airplane to make a abrupt turn in you just push the button and drop the handle. My point was that if you weren't expecting it and you were weak in the feet it may get ugly. So just throwing the flaps up because it's windy and you're in an airplane may cause you more problems than you had to begin with. Not a good idea to start dictating this to be good standard practice with no other considerations thrown in.

 

[sqwkvfr]

When you do a flight check the examiner is check that CFI is teachinf properly. When i gove a check ride, I know most of the guys that send me students and I know what to expect from them.

What i meant from my post was if this guy didn't come on here and ask, he woulda kept on doing it and went to his checkride. Maybe he would pass maybe not. I would not pass him for moving the flaps up on the roll.

Seriously, you would fail somebody for retracting the flaps on the landing roll?

I haven't read all of the comments on this thread so I don't know if I'm the first to say it, but that is just plain ludicrous.

I fully understand the merits of exiting the runway and then conducting after landing checks and personally discourage retracting on the landing roll unless required or heavy braking is required, but if an applicant can't handle retracting the flaps whilst on the runway, there are bigger issues to deal with.

I think that issuing a notice of disapproval for this alone is extremely unreasonable.

 

[nosehair]

I think that issuing a notice of disapproval for this alone is extremely unreasonable.

I don't believe it. I believe this to be one of those threatening myths to justify a popular procedure.

I just don't believe an examiner would/could fail an applicant, unless he/she nearly lost control whilst doing it. You never know what/how an applicant sees his/her momentary failing points.

 

[avbug]

I believe an examiner might fail a student for moving the flaps on the runway. In fact, I've no doubt that there are examiners out there who might do so.

I've no doubt there are examiners out there who would take the exorbitant fees they charge an applicant, fail them, and expect them to take the test again, in fact...for another exorbitant fee.

 

[brokeflyer]

Part of the PTS is check list usage. Nowhere does it say to retract the flaps on touchdown.

That 1 iteam may seem silly to all of you, but when someone deviates from it by moving the flaps up, what's to stop them from doing other things that are not on the checklist.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Part of the PTS is check list usage. Nowhere does it say to retract the flaps on touchdown.

That 1 iteam may seem silly to all of you, but when someone deviates from it by moving the flaps up, what's to stop them from doing other things that are not on the checklist.

I don't want to get into a whole semantics argument here, but I believe it's called the "after landing checklist," not the "cleared the runway across the hold short line and completely stopped checklist."

Again, I discourage students from retracting the flaps on the landing roll, but they've gotten plenty of practice doing so whilst conducting touch and goes and short field landings.

It certainly isn't an unsafe operation. I would have an extremely hard time using re-using an examiner who failed a student for doing so and passing it off as failure to properly use a checklist.

Absent any other deficiencies, I'd think that it would be more appropriate to use this as a debrief discussion topic, not an excuse to fail an applicant.