Calling ALL CFI's ....Double I's and all...

[avbug]

Part of the PTS is check list usage. Nowhere does it say to retract the flaps on touchdown.

That 1 iteam may seem silly to all of you, but when someone deviates from it by moving the flaps up, what's to stop them from doing other things that are not on the checklist.

That really depends on the checklist.

Use of flaps is as much technique as it is procedure. While a manufacturer may provide recommended procedures, technique permits varying ways to move the flaps...and that includes raising flaps on landing.

Raising flaps as part of a short field technique is appropriate, in fact.

A checklist in normal operation is not a "do" list, but a list of items to be checked as having been done in a flow. Certain procedures do require specific sequences of events...but use of flaps on a normal landing isn't one of them.

Avoiding touching anything on the runway is a common practice among many flight schools, and even among many operators, but it isn't universal, and it isn't even appropriate for many operations.

 

[Goose Egg]

For what it's worth, our SOP dictates that the after-landing checklist be done when clear of the runway.

However, if I'm out there in my own C-185 (hey, a guy can dream), I'm pullin' the flaps whenever I dang well please.

-Goose

 

[brokeflyer]

you do whatever you want to. Im just saying that most landing data is based on landing flaps, not flaps retracted at touchdown. So, once you do that, your landing data is invalid.

If you're landing on something that is so short you need to do this practice, then you have real problems.

These made-up procedures are what lead to bigger things.

 

[avbug]

you do whatever you want to. Im just saying that most landing data is based on landing flaps, not flaps retracted at touchdown. So, once you do that, your landing data is invalid.

If you're landing on something that is so short you need to do this practice, then you have real problems.

These made-up procedures are what lead to bigger things.

That's certainly a typical narrow viewpoint based on inexperience. Simply because you don't have the experience to be familiar with this type of technique, don't condemn it.

It's not a procedure, it's a technique, and it's quite legitimate. I've used it, and been a part of a number of operations that legitimately did so, ranging from single engine Cessnas operating off dirt airstrips to large four engine airplanes operating in busy terminal areas.

It's standard practice in many ag airplanes, which is a very legitimate use; lowering flaps upon touchdown of the main gear permits lowering of the tailwheel, which permits application of reverse thrust. Reverse thrust, as you might guess, reduces landing roll, reduces break use and wear, permits faster turnarounds, and enhances control, particularly on short runways.

When departing from a rough field, particularly one with loose chips, lowering flaps well into the takeoff roll reduces damage to the flaps. It's a legitimate, and appropriate technique in several types of airplanes I've operated...and far from a "made up procedure."

When landing on ice with a crosswind, judicious use of flaps while on the runway has often proven a useful control technique. You might be shocked at the concept of raising and lowering flaps in a turn, but to avoid a stall-spin while maneuvering at 75' in steep turns, which is often done nearly or to the stall buffet, it's necessary. Lower the flaps as one rolls into the steep turn, take the flaps out as one rolls out...appropriate technique given the type of operation.

You make an assumption regarding part 23 airplanes and the use of flaps throughout the landing roll, and you overestimate the effect of flaps during the rollout. In fact, as the airplane slows, the aerodynamic braking and drag provided by extended flaps is largely negligible, whereas braking is not...and raising flaps to enable better control on a soft or slick surface, and more effective braking on nearly any surface, is a legitimate, commonly used technique. Apparently just one outside your realm of experience.

 

[Goose Egg]

If you're landing on something that is so short you need to do this practice, then you have real problems.

Has anyone ever told you to get some soul? If not, I'm telling you now.

-Goose

 

[brokeflyer]

That's certainly a typical narrow viewpoint based on inexperience. Simply because you don't have the experience to be familiar with this type of technique, don't condemn it.

It's not a procedure, it's a technique, and it's quite legitimate. I've used it, and been a part of a number of operations that legitimately did so, ranging from single engine Cessnas operating off dirt airstrips to large four engine airplanes operating in busy terminal areas.

It's standard practice in many ag airplanes, which is a very legitimate use; lowering flaps upon touchdown of the main gear permits lowering of the tailwheel, which permits application of reverse thrust. Reverse thrust, as you might guess, reduces landing roll, reduces break use and wear, permits faster turnarounds, and enhances control, particularly on short runways.

When departing from a rough field, particularly one with loose chips, lowering flaps well into the takeoff roll reduces damage to the flaps. It's a legitimate, and appropriate technique in several types of airplanes I've operated...and far from a "made up procedure."

When landing on ice with a crosswind, judicious use of flaps while on the runway has often proven a useful control technique. You might be shocked at the concept of raising and lowering flaps in a turn, but to avoid a stall-spin while maneuvering at 75' in steep turns, which is often done nearly or to the stall buffet, it's necessary. Lower the flaps as one rolls into the steep turn, take the flaps out as one rolls out...appropriate technique given the type of operation.

You make an assumption regarding part 23 airplanes and the use of flaps throughout the landing roll, and you overestimate the effect of flaps during the rollout. In fact, as the airplane slows, the aerodynamic braking and drag provided by extended flaps is largely negligible, whereas braking is not...and raising flaps to enable better control on a soft or slick surface, and more effective braking on nearly any surface, is a legitimate, commonly used technique. Apparently just one outside your realm of experience.

Whatever

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Your gonna need some "thick skin" in this business. There's a difference between "technique" and "procedure". Some people cant distinguish this when they teach. You've obviously thought about the situation and have come up with a "good" reason for how and why you flew the airplane the way you did. It sounds safe....Remember: "One landing does not sum up a man's aviation experience".

 

[avbug]

Whatever

A brilliant, well thought out response that wreaks of both insight and intelligence, which shall doubtless go down in the annals of flightinfo history as the brightest, and most thought provoking reply yet. Congratulations on such a fine effort. Magic. Just magic!

 

[nosehair]

I've no doubt there are examiners out there who would take the exorbitant fees they charge an applicant, fail them, and expect them to take the test again, in fact...for another exorbitant fee.

OK, I'll give you that one. Not talking about 'those kind of people', they're in every profession, but about the guy who's giving an honest evaluation.

 

[PilotSkydiver]

FWIW,

When I flew Part 135 in Alaska in a cherokee six. It was SOP to retract the flaps to kill the lift on every touchdown, due to the unpredictable winds in the valleys. I flew with MANY feds during that time and did not hear one complaint. I agree with avbug on this one... it's a technique, and one that I would not teach primary students.

 

[brokeflyer]

A brilliant, well thought out response that wreaks of both insight and intelligence, which shall doubtless go down in the annals of flightinfo history as the brightest, and most thought provoking reply yet. Congratulations on such a fine effort. Magic. Just magic!

well im not gonna let you pull me into some little verbal war like all the other kids here.

so by all means go ahead.

 

[avbug]

Not talking about 'those kind of people', they're in every profession, but about the guy who's giving an honest evaluation.

You found one that does that?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

These made-up procedures are what lead to bigger things.

These are not made-up procedures. I'm almost certain that it comes from some FAA handbook...circa? I dunno. But I'm certain that it was procedural to bring flaps up on a short field landing demonstration in a primary trainer. My instructors taught this way and so did I. It demonstrates the ability to transfer weight from the wings to the wheels upon touchdown. Aerodynamic braking is effective only during the high speed portion of a landing. Below a certain speed, flaps and holding the nose off by yanking back on the yoke will not improve the planes ability to slow down. Maybe techniques have changed, but there certainly was FAA guidence on this subject at one point. If I ever find an old refernce to it, I will post it. But to call it made up is ridiculous.

FYI, a lot of this depends on the plane you began to train in. My first few certificates were done in low wing Pipers with a manual flap handle between the seats. Some trainers have a flap switch which looks, feels and is positioned near the gear handle lever. Due to the lack of standardization, some planes were more prone to inadvertant gear-ups due to their flap/gear layout than other planes. This is one of the primary reasons they tell you not to touch the "flaps."

 

[brokeflyer]

well I guess no one wants my opions or ideas so Ill just let you all take the helm.

bye

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I think the only advice I could offer is to stick to commonly accepted practices whenever possible.

Is retracting the flaps after touchdown on a paved runway of sufficient distance in "normal" conditions acceptable... yeah, absolutely.

I would not however consider this a technique appropriate to every landing. If you have a reason to do this fine, if there's not a valid justification, you're just better off not futzing with your configuration until you've completed the landing roll.

 

[VW Pilot]

I agree with ya purple haze....very much so.

Seems use of the technique is best when appropriate....(Pilot's descretion) And as experience grows, one can "decide" "when" it is appropriate....
Thanks.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

In low altitude maneuvering in ag type aircraft, it's not uncommon to apply flaps as one enters a turn and retract them as one rolls out. Use flaps when you need them.

Funny you mention this.

When I was a CFI in the NYC area, I did a lot of "NYC City tours" with students, family and friends during the day and at night. This consisted of flying west along the south shore and up the Hudson river with a left 180 just south of the GWB.

As one must remain below 1,100 or so over the river and off the NY and NJ shore, it required a tight turn to get pointed south and not penetrate the "triple B" airspace.

In order to ensure I didn't drift into NJ, as I 180'ed around, I would bring in the flaps to drop the stall speed as I banked it around to the south. After the rollout I would retract the flaps.

 

[avbug]

It works well inside a tight canyon, too.