Calling ALL CFI's ....Double I's and all...

[VW Pilot]

Ok I've been training for the Instrument Rating and all is well. Just this one thing. I do realize that most instructors have their own ways of teaching and some add concepts and what not...but this one I have never heard of. Upon landing on the runway, the instructor says ok....one thing on that landing. You didn't retract the flaps....Mind you were still on the landing roll coming to a stop. He says if you leave the flaps in the extended positions during the roll to a stop, it will cause you to skid.......I questioned this. I don't understand how this can cause the plane to skid. Landing without correcting aircraft and runway alignment and failure to maintain directional control will definately cause a skid....right off the runway...Overbraking or applying brake pressure unevenly on the pedals can cause a skid....I just don't see the relationship. I stated that leaving the flaps extended can aid in adding some extra drag or wind resistance and help slow the plane. He stressed that since the plane's speed is not sufficient for the wings to produce lift that they won't produce drag either.....I then said, well that makes sense but
I was relating drag to resistance of the whole aircraft moving forward.....I didn't argue too much because he is the Instructor and thus more experienced than me and I respect his position and maybe there is something that I don't know. But he didn't clarify it, so I'm asking U guys....Do you teach this? During my PPL I was taught upon touchdown, keep that nose wheel up or at least add some back pressure to keep the weight off the nose wheel and use rudders to maintain directional control then apply light to medium pressure for braking.....this didn't include retracting flaps.......

 

[Andy Neill]

I think the issue of what flaps do after a landing is the secondary issue here. The primary issue seems to be whether your instructor can expalin to your satisfaction a procedure he wants you to perform. Phrases like, "I know you want me to retract the flaps after landing but I don't understand why. Could you explain it to me another way?" may get you a satisfactory answer. If this issue is creating a breach of trust in your instructor that you cannot resolve with your instructor, take it to the chief for an instructor change.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I taught my students that flap retraction was an after-landing event. Do not change any configuration on the rollout. Focus on landing the plane, not changing configuration.

Many designated examiners will fail you for removing flaps, switching off lights, etc while still on the runway. All of that should be done once safely stopped on a taxi-way.

Now, he is correct that your braking is less effective at high airspeeds with flaps, but that is why you should reduce your speed with increasing braking as your airspeed decreases. If you slam on the brakes right as you touch down you will definitely skid.

 

[look4traffic]

The only time I've heard of retracting flaps during the landing roll is if you are doing a short field landing. For normal landing I was taught and taught my students to wait until the aircraft is clear of the runway to "clean up" the airplane.

 

[great cornholio]

I agree with what has been said above. I was taught and taught my students to leave the flaps alone until you are clear of the runway. I also know some DEs that would fail people for messing with the flaps while still on the landing roll.

The best advice I have heard on here is to ask him to explain the reason behind him wanting you to put the flaps up on the landing roll. If he can't give you an explaination that you can understand then you need to get yourself a new CFI. Part of being a good CFI is being able to explain things so that the student can understand. Everybody learns a different way and when I used to CFI I had about 10 or so different ways to explain everything...and even then there were times I had to send students to other CFIs cause my teaching method just wasn't working with a student's particular learning method....so don't be afaid to switch if this guys teaching method doesn't jive with the way you learn.

The only reason I can think of as to why he would think that flaps down would cause a skid is because with the flaps down more lift is produced. With more lift the weight on the tires is less. If there is less wieght on the tires then the brakes are less effective. Also with less weight on the tires it would probably take less brake pressure to get a tire to lock up and skid. Of course all of this is only applicable during the high speed part of the landing roll. So in order to get the weight to the wheels faster you would have to raise the flaps right after touch down. In my opinion (and I'm sure a lot of others here on FI) It is way more dangerous to mess with the flaps while still going high speed on the landing roll than to get the flaps up to "prevent a skid". If you want to prevent a skid then keep the brake pressure light and apply it gradually, if you hear or feel a tire lock up the let up on the brakes...pretty simple and not distracting.

Here are my arguments as to why raising the flaps is a bad idea.

1. When you get to complex planes you might raise the wrong handle and by bad luck raise the gear (of course other stuff would have to go wrong, but it has happend in the past)

2. Looking inside to find the flap selector while moving high speed down the runway could lead to a loss of directional control and end up way worse than most "skids" would.

 

[CA1900]

Unless the aircraft manufacturer specifically recommends doing so, you shouldn't be moving any non-pertinent controls until clear of the runway.

If you need a reference to back this up, this excerpt from page 8-7 of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook is a good start:

Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

There's no rush, and no reason to be blindly reaching for secondary controls while you're still landing and slowing the airplane. It's very likely that your airplane's handbook says something similar; I'd check that, too.

 

[navigatro]

Fire that CFI, he is a punk.

Seriously, though, the advice above is good.

 

[VW Pilot]

I agree...and in the warrior and 172 planes I trained in, I saw nothing in the POH about retracting flaps during landing rolls....I did read this in the FAA handbook about "cleaning up" the plane after you exit the runway and safely stopped on a taxi way.....Thanks for the input

 

[brokeflyer]

The problem with teaching that is down the road when you're flying something like a bonanza ro something with retractable gear, what are you gonna say when you move the gear handle up instead of the flap by accident?

Dont touch anything until you clear the runway, stop and do the after landing checklist or flow per the AFM.

If you CFI continues to have you do this, then do it and after you fail the examiner will talk this over with your CFI.

 

[ALIMBO]

Well don't do it on your checkride. Why fail due to your instructor not knowing what he is talking about. Like everyone said above unless its a short field leave em alone. I remember one instructor would literally slap your hand if you touched or did anything but taxi the plane or touched anything until after you were clear the runway. If you really want to print up this page and ask him why so many people would disagree with him. That should give him an ample opportunity to explain himself. Remember to be polite about it though.

 

[brokeflyer]

When you do a flight check the examiner is check that CFI is teachinf properly. When i gove a check ride, I know most of the guys that send me students and I know what to expect from them.

What i meant from my post was if this guy didn't come on here and ask, he woulda kept on doing it and went to his checkride. Maybe he would pass maybe not. I would not pass him for moving the flaps up on the roll.

 

[172driver]

The landing distance in your POH is not predicated upon lifting the flaps up in the landing roll. You shouldn't need any additional braking effectiveness beyond what those numbers give you, so why use a non-published procedure that many experienced pilots say is a bad idea?

 

[ksu_aviator]

First off, don't fire your CFI just because he is wrong on one issue. If every student I had had fired me for being wrong, I'd never have signed anyone off. In fact, there where several instances where I learned something from my students.

With that being said, go do some research for yourself. Check the manufacturer's recommendations, look for Advisory Circulars that cover landings, read the part of the AIM that deals with landings, and see if you can find any regulations on it. When you are done, you will have learned more than the CFI can teach you AND you'll have the information you need to discuss the matter with him.

If he doesn't want to listen to the manufacturer and the FAA, he's probably not going to teach you good habits and it is at that point that you should consider changing instructors.

I've seen lots of people that seem to think that the engineers that designed the airplane and the test pilots that certified the aircraft know less than they do (including certain major operators). I can only say that I know that I'm not smarter than the number crunchers and science geeks when it comes to predicting aircraft performance and anyone that says they are smarter, scares me.

 

[AC560]

why use a non-published procedure that many experienced pilots say is a bad idea?

It isn't just pilots the FAA thinks it is a pretty good idea as well.

After the airplane is on the ground, back-elevator pressure may be gradually relaxed to place normal weight on the nosewheel to aid in better steering. If available runway permits, the speed of the airplane should be allowed to dissipate in a normal manner. Once the airplane has slowed sufficiently and has turned on to the taxiway and stopped, the pilot should retract the flaps and clean up the airplane. Many accidents have occurred as a result of the pilot unintentionally operating the landing gear control and retracting the gear instead of the flap control when the airplane was still rolling. The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

Source

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Great Cornholio said it all.

Flaps up AFTER clearing the runway. Unless it's a short-field landing. Retracting flaps transfers AC weight from the wings to the wheels where braking will have a greater effect. Holding the nose wheel off (along w/increasing the AOA) provides aerodynamic drag which is most effective during the high speed portion of the landing. As speed slows, aerodynamic braking has less of an effect.

 

[AC560]

Flaps up AFTER clearing the runway. Unless it's a short-field landing. Retracting flaps transfers AC weight from the wings to the wheels where braking will have a greater effect.

FAA-H-8083-3A (most recent version of Airplane Flying Handbook which most examiner types look at as a bible) removes the previous suggestion that flaps should be retracted during a short field landing. If the POH says otherwise perhaps it would have consideration. I don't see much value in teaching students to do that and agree with the vebiage The habit of positively identifying both of these controls, before actuating them, should be formed from the very beginning of flight training and continued in all future flying activities.

As a totally unrelated piece of useless information. If you pull of flaps in an AC560 on roll out the nose will shoot up as the elevator gains substantial (scarey) authority. You can keep the nose in the air till about 15-20mph which looks extremely cool in a 747 fashion to on lookers. I wouldn't teach it to a student and while probably not the smartest thing to do, every so often I indulged my guilty pleasure.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

 

[svcta]

Aren't we talkin fixed gear trainers?

When I last instructed several years ago, that's how I taught it. I guess things have changed. I should keep my pie hole shut. Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

Yes, we probably are, but to train certain procedures just because you happen to be in a fixed-gear trainer at the is a missed opportunity to develop good habits for the future. From before I started officially logging time I have been in the habit of a GUMP check, as an example. Undercarriage down and welded. It got me in the habit early and I do it before every landing (not when in jets, though, it's already covered, though I always double check the gear on short final when it's not my leg). Given the fact that I go from jets at work to single-engine (and usually single-pilot) stuff in my spare time this habit is valuable to me. There's enough stuff to forget as it is......

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground. I used to fly a 520 commander out of a 2000' grass runway (the airplane was based there) and even with all that airplane I would never mess around pulling handles on the landing roll. I would routinely make the turn to our hangar at midfield, too, with only medium braking. I digress..........

Develp habits with your students early. Regardless of their ambitions.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I used to do GUMP checks too, while flying and teaching in fixed gear planes as well. I did so, so I wouldn't forget when I flew something retractable.

As far as retracting them for short-fields, well that was the established technique back when I flew light planes. It was standard to retract flaps during the short field rollout, while applying maximum braking.

Most GA trainers can land on pretty much any strip without retracting flaps. It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced. On some planes (twins, I believe), the examiner wanted you to call out the flap retraction without actually bringing them up.

 

[AC560]

It is/was more of a technical aspect to convey the concept of weight transfering, which provides a slightly better stopping distance. A distance not really even needed in these small planes. It's a technique which should be at a minimum, explained if not actually practiced.

No argument from me on that it is a valid theory and discussion. My only point was you do it on a checkride most DPE's are going to fail you and as an overwhelming thought students should be taught to complete the landing, exit the runway, and then perform an after landing check list.

Evidently, another poster informed me that one can bank beyond 60 degrees without a parachute as well.

You can if you are solo or if the you are wearing a view limiting device and the other guy is a safety pilot

Interestingly enough you can do it on a flight test which is something I never knew before either (see 91.307).

And in some airplanes, the twin commander comes to mind, there are no systemic safety features to prevent an inadvertent gear retraction on the ground.

The 560A has bungee cords on a metal plate which will keep the gear locked unless the strut is almost completely extended (not sure the techinical term). Ours also had a little pin latch you had to pop out to bring the handle up.

Though I do know of one instance where a mechanic did some high speed taxi tests with the gear in the up handle and collapsed the gear. Not sure if that was because he was cooking fast enough to stretch the gear or it was a failure of the mechanisim.

 

[nosehair]

He says if you leave the flaps in the extended positions during the roll to a stop, it will cause you to skid.......I questioned this.

?? How did you question this?...did you question the instructor? That's what I want to know.

Maybe he is trying to teach you something. What he says is true,.. well, the lowered flaps will cause a slower reduction of lift causing a longer period of roll-out time in transitioning the weight from the wings to the wheels, which could be slippery.

Oh, sure, what everyone is saying about habits is true,..but, in fact, raising the flaps immediately will provide better braking. Fact.

He is either young & inexperienced and has not heard all of the above reasons why you should not raise the flaps on roll-out, or he is old school..really old school, and has not heard all the above reasons.

In the old manual flap 172's (late 50's/early60's), with the long flap handle between the seats, you could gradually ease up the flaps as you braked for max efficiency. But that was a different handle...not like a gear handle on the panel.

 

[brokeflyer]

pulling the gear handle up on the roll will increase braking as well.

 

[CA1900]

It isn't just pilots the FAA thinks it is a pretty good idea as well. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-4of7.pdf

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

 

[AC560]

I could have sworn somebody already posted that. :laugh:

You only fly a B1900 why would anyone including me read what you have to say!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Goose Egg]

The only time I've heard of retracting flaps during the landing roll is if you are doing a short field landing. For normal landing I was taught and taught my students to wait until the aircraft is clear of the runway to "clean up" the airplane.

For what it's worth, I've heard this too. However, in the C-172 (in which I did the majority of my instructing) it takes the electric motors so long to retract the flaps that the airplane was usually stopped before they were fully retracted, and it didn't make much difference in the actual landing roll distance. I could see retracting the flaps at touchdown in a manually actuated system being more effective, but I wouldn't let my students do it... Better to take 50 extra feet of landing roll than hit the wrong lever and retract the landing gear or something like that (if the squat switch was malfunctioning... I guess it could happen.)

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

-Goose

 

[nosehair]

And the only time I've seen an actual skid was when my student landed with the brakes on. I think that's more of a "footwork" issue than a "flaps" issue.

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

 

[Goose Egg]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

That's good to know--I hadn't heard that about the braking with flaps in on a taildragger. All of my tailwheel time is the in the "flapless" variety, so naturally I'd come to the conclusion that it was "footwork" only.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Well, I would agree that the potential for a on-runway gear retraction is probably over-played. I think it's worth at least a thought though. Perhaps if one always visually verified what they were touching, then there wouldn't be much problem at all--just a quick look, that's all it would take.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Agreed.

-Goose

 

[Amish RakeFight]

It's both. It's a skill that has been lost. In the old days, manually retracting flaps as you apply brake pressure was the technique. That was back in the old tailwheel days, too, when too much braking or braking too much with flaps down might cause a nose-over.

In those days, GA wasn't too much about retracts, but since some folks have not been able to keep up with where the gear and flap handle are, we have downplayed this technique as dangerous.

Still, it is the most effective technique for the most shortest landing roll, and sometimes, in an emergency, a few feet can make all the difference between life and death.

Sometimes when I'm driving too fast and unexpectedly need to stop really short, I shift my gear from D to N. This helps shorten your stopping distance.

BTW, we used to see how short one could land and still make it off the first turnoff. Fun stuff that hones your skills in pitch and airspeed control.

 

[svcta]

With almost 1000 hours of tailwheel time in a pretty wide variety of types, the only one that I would ever retract the flaps during the landing roll with was the T-6, and then only on short runways. It is a unique airplane, though in a lot of ways in terms of ground handling. And it has split flaps that hang down just matter of inches from the ground, which caused lots of compressibility and kept the wing flying far too long to get the tail pinned effectively if you were trying to brake. I don't know of a single other taildragger that I would choose to do this with.

As a matter of fact, a Super Cub will make a DRAMATIC turn for the barn if you snatch the flaps up during a landing roll. And if you didn't know this going in you could get yourself in to a situation that had your feet/heels working hard to keep you going ahead.

Another good reason to just stay configured until the job is done.

 

[LavMan]

Clean up once you are clear of the runway, crossing the line. That is clear of the runway. At the 121 level, that is what we do, and if we have an observation ride or a line check, and they touch anything before then, slap on the hand! Fly the plane first always! One thing at a time, never be in a hurry. That is what I taught when I instructed, and none of the students I sent on rides, ever had an inspector say anything to the contrary.