Call for Release

[glasspilot]

Technically, no it wasn't.

 

[Clutch]

Technically, no it wasn't.

Maybe not in 1998 at ACA

 

[glasspilot]

It was 2005 and I was pretty upfront about my reference. It wasn't my average weight program. I didn't write the rules. The FAA approved the program. Under it, gate-checked carry ons (the ones in the back cargo) weighed 10 lbs. If they were not gate-checked and instead came on board with the pax then the weight was considered to be part of the pax average weight.

If that has changed then I'd like to know how the rule has changed. Do they add the 10 lbs even if it's in the cabin or do they try to write a rule that says you can't move bags to accommodate a JS? Don't just tell me it's "technically prohibited", instead tell me what's different from the average weight program I just described.

 

[Clutch]

It was 2005 and I was pretty upfront about my reference. It wasn't my average weight program. I didn't write the rules. The FAA approved the program. Under it, gate-checked carry ons (the ones in the back cargo) weighed 10 lbs. If they were not gate-checked and instead came on board with the pax then the weight was considered to be part of the pax average weight.

If that has changed then I'd like to know how the rule has changed. Do they add the 10 lbs even if it's in the cabin or do they try to write a rule that says you can't move bags to accommodate a JS? Don't just tell me it's "technically prohibited", instead tell me what's different from the average weight program I just described.

I told you in my first post. Some carriers don't allow carry-ons in the cabin, only "personal items". If it's checked at the gate, it's most likely not getting in the cabin.

They are now 20 lbs, so you would only need to move 9 into the cabin, if it wasn't prohibited.

 

[glasspilot]

So you would only have to move 9. Makes it easier then. You have to work with the rules, however crazy, you have. It wasn't "technically prohibited" when we did it.

It's a sore spot for me because I was a commuter and saw plenty of guys not doing what they could legally do to help a brother out. Obviously if revenue is being kicked off for whatever reason then the JS is out of luck. But many many times RJ drivers are just saying "no" for no reason.

 

[Clutch]

So you would only have to move 9. Makes it easier then. You have to work with the rules, however crazy, you have. It wasn't "technically prohibited" when we did it.

It's a sore spot for me because I was a commuter and saw plenty of guys not doing what they could legally do to help a brother out. Obviously if revenue is being kicked off for whatever reason then the JS is out of luck. But many many times RJ drivers are just saying "no" for no reason.

This policy is fairly new. In the past, we used to use the same moving-of-bags to get jumpseaters on. However, the new policy limits this when you never know who is on board observing.

Also, there is only so much "lying" with the acars you can do. You can't say you have 7200 pounds of gas when you really have 8000. That's just ridiculous. But, sometimes, that is the only solution other than entering 16 kids in the front. But, that raises a huge red, false flag, because 16 12 year olds don't usually fly around together.

When you are overweight by adding balast, and you are forward of CG without it, there really isn't much you can do. Today's technology and the "no carry-on on the CR2" policy really ties our hands.

 

[sinkrate]

ACA did, however that was 6 years ago and they're defunct now. At the time a carry on weighed 10 lbs if it was checked in the cargo and zero if it was in the cabin (actually it was simply included in the pax average weight, but that's the same thing as zero really).

So you just move 18 of them into the cabin and you magically have the weight for the JS. Weather you actually move them or not is up to you. Point is there's never (almost) a valid reason to leave a JS behind.

The FAA fixed that after the overweight and out of CG B1900 hit the hanger in CLT. All carry ons are now 30 pounds.

The problem isn't CG. It is exceeding the maximum certificated landing weight when using a completely automated, and integrated, dispatch/load manifest/performance system. If the computer sees you are going to land over weight with the load/fuel/route you have it kills the dispatch release. You won't get a thing out of it until you fix the problem. Creating more weight by moving carry ons to cargo would make it worse.

Welcome to the 21st century. I've been using this automated system for eleven years now and hope I never have to go back to the dark ages like ACA/ASA/CMR. The only disadvantage is you get caught when you cheat.

 

[glasspilot]

That overweight 1900 in CLT was like a decade ago. Regardless, sinkrate, this was just a stupid side discussion while I was waiting for you to get back on that whole "MZFW to MLW is only a 3K split so I can't launch on a 45 minute flight" thing. Have you conceeded that one or do you still think you have a point in there somewhere?

Trust me, I'd much rather talk about that than some old w&b policy.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Things the Captain should do to help out jumpseaters.... drop the Alternate and its fuel if one isn't needed, lower the Hold fuel, don't take any Extra fuel, find a closer alternate if one is needed. Now that it is summer, there are more kids on the planes and we are using summer weights.

The first thing I check is whether or not we have an alternate, and is it needed? I try to take 50+1 on every flight.

 

[SiuDude]

I have had airports as close or closer to ATL just take an estimated wheels time. I understand what you're saying, but does the decision to wait or get an expected wheels up from the crew up to the discretion of the controller? I would think if the crew gave a time and couldn't meet it, that it would be their fault and they'd have to deal with any further delay. That being said, why would a controller care if they don't make the time? He/she isn't the one sitting with the added delay if any, so why not call with what the crew gives as an EWU every time?

The controller in the tower does not usually have discretion as to when to call the TMU for release. That procedure is spelled out by the center in question.
For example, ZJX requests estimated wheels up times from aircraft 30 minutes prior to departure. So, when coming out of MCO or PNS to ATL, you can call ground or clearance, and give them an ETD.
Mobile, which is located in ZHU, obviously has a different procedure dictated by Houston Center, and does not want you calling for release until beginning taxi.