CAL/UAL Merger Done Next Week

[General Lee]

Was just thinking about that. Relative seniority at United has changed dramatically since 2008, correct?

So if I am at approximately 75 % at CAL will that mean I am going to be approximately 75 % at UAL ?? What DOH is a UAL pilot with 75 %? I think somebody is going to be pissed! I hope this is not like a US Airways merger, but I feel we are headed in that direction.

That would put you about 1/2 way up the FO list at a combined carrier. (obviously assuming that 50% are Captains and 50% F0s) The SLI at DL/NWA was a bit contentious, but a joint contract with a pay raise and better rules softened the blow somewhat. You can't make everyone happy. The arbitrators will look it over and make a ruling, and they have their reasons, some of which each side just cannot see for themselves.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

I thought that is what I meant by the post - I agree......

I agree as well. I didn't mean to sound otherwise. Beg your pardon.

Jay Pierce's position on scope is that it will NOT be cut out of the equation and it will be used to do what it is suppose to do. Protect/secure jobs. The combined airline will have scope.

 

[eaglesview]

That would put you about 1/2 way up the FO list at a combined carrier. (obviously assuming that 50% are Captains and 50% F0s) The SLI at DL/NWA was a bit contentious, but a joint contract with a pay raise and better rules softened the blow somewhat. You can't make everyone happy. The arbitrators will look it over and make a ruling, and they have their reasons, some of which each side just cannot see for themselves.


Bye Bye--General Lee

With a large portion of our flying being augmented the split is hardly 50/50.

 

[densoo]

Don't forget that CAL's orders are for growth, whereas UAL's orders are for replacement. Something has to be said for career expectations.

Are UAL's actually ordered? I thought there was just an intention to order. No money, no commitments, no contracts signed, no exposure.

 

[densoo]

CAL has 99 hires that hold CA, UAL's 99 hires are furloughed.

Any idea of the DOH of the junior UAL captain?

 

[General Lee]

With a large portion of our flying being augmented the split is hardly 50/50.

It really doesn't matter. I hear you that there are more FOs than Captains, that was the case at DL/NWA also. NWA had 3 FOs and 1 Capt for their long haul stuff, and DL had 2 Capts and 2 FOs. Now it is 2 Capt 2 FOs, period. Regardless, If you are near 87% now in your current company, you will be darn close to that in the merge. Both CAL and UAL have a lot of widebodies, a lot of 757s, and a lot of smaller narrowbodies. Besides the 744s at UAL and the future 787s at CAL, I can't see other fences, and it will be fairly easy to plot out for the arbitrators. Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mr.B]

Are UAL's actually ordered? I thought there was just an intention to order. No money, no commitments, no contracts signed, no exposure.

ordered

 

[St. Nic]

It really doesn't matter. I hear you that there are more FOs than Captains, that was the case at DL/NWA also. NWA had 3 FOs and 1 Capt for their long haul stuff, and DL had 2 Capts and 2 FOs. Now it is 2 Capt 2 FOs, period. Regardless, If you are near 87% now in your current company, you will be darn close to that in the merge. Both CAL and UAL have a lot of widebodies, a lot of 757s, and a lot of smaller narrowbodies. Besides the 744s at UAL and the future 787s at CAL, I can't see other fences, and it will be fairly easy to plot out for the arbitrators. Good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

DOH with fence is the only fair way to merge. Longevity is saved, 20 years = 20 years and everybody is happy. What you propose only benefits a few. Ive been through a few mergers and DOH is the fairest way. With CAL/ UAL, you will have CAL newhires placed next to UAL pilots iwth 10 years seniority. TOTALLY UNFIAR!

 

[UAL-GSO]

Any idea of the DOH of the junior UAL captain?

I think it is 1995.

 

[justin15e]

DOH with fence is the only fair way to merge. Longevity is saved, 20 years = 20 years and everybody is happy. What you propose only benefits a few. Ive been through a few mergers and DOH is the fairest way. With CAL/ UAL, you will have CAL newhires placed next to UAL pilots iwth 10 years seniority. TOTALLY UNFIAR!

That's fine, CAL pilots will then oppose the merger adamantly (since UA pilots support it) and we potentially won't have a merger.

There are 10-12 year pilots at UA that are 500-1000 people down the seniority list on furlough. How long do you think it will be before those guys get recalled? 3-5 years minimum would be my guess. There are guys that were hired in 2008 that will very likely get recalled by the end of the year, which is straight from manpower planning people. CAL has a lot of retirements in proportion to the amount of pilots once age 65 starts kicking in (Cal guys can expect 300-400 retirements a year for 4-5 years in a row, thats a lot of movement, not including growth from the 787s which 6 are scheduled to be on property in 2011 if Boeing get's its stuff together)

Is it fair to guys at CAL that would move up in seniority fairly quickly to get put behind a guy at UA that hasn't moved up in years?

 

[Flopgut]

DOH with fence is the only fair way to merge. Longevity is saved, 20 years = 20 years and everybody is happy. What you propose only benefits a few. Ive been through a few mergers and DOH is the fairest way. With CAL/ UAL, you will have CAL newhires placed next to UAL pilots iwth 10 years seniority. TOTALLY UNFIAR!

It sucks, but it's not unfair when you're the one with a scope clause.

Put the DOH notion, make sure CAL scope is in the joint contract and when we sign it every furlough get's recalled.

 

[St. Nic]

That's fine, CAL pilots will then oppose the merger adamantly (since UA pilots support it) and we potentially won't have a merger.

There are 10-12 year pilots at UA that are 500-1000 people down the seniority list on furlough. How long do you think it will be before those guys get recalled? 3-5 years minimum would be my guess. There are guys that were hired in 2008 that will very likely get recalled by the end of the year, which is straight from manpower planning people. CAL has a lot of retirements in proportion to the amount of pilots once age 65 starts kicking in (Cal guys can expect 300-400 retirements a year for 4-5 years in a row, thats a lot of movement, not including growth from the 787s which 6 are scheduled to be on property in 2011 if Boeing get's its stuff together)

Is it fair to guys at CAL that would move up in seniority fairly quickly to get put behind a guy at UA that hasn't moved up in years?

DOH is the only fair way of merging, rookie.

 

[tie1on]

let me guess, you are a united or us air pilot?

 

[FDJ2]

DOH is the only fair way of merging, rookie.

Still stuck in the 70s old man.

I know your still smarting from having your butt handed to you by those rookies at AWA, but let's be realistic, no one was going to allow you to rebuild your career on the backs of another pilot group.

Status/Category ratios are the foundation of building a fair list.

Your DOH on your premerger seniority list is about as relevant as the date a coin is minted. The value of a peso and euro are determined by what they can buy, not when they were minted. Similarly, the value of your DOH is determined by what position it can "buy" you, in a stove pipe, on your premerger list.

Long fences don't work, their very existance is a recognition that the list is not fair. On the other hand, recognizing the value of the jobs brought to the merger does.

 

[SuperFLUF]

DOH is the only fair way of merging, rookie.

Life isn't fair. AND a DOH SLI sure as hell isn't fair either.

There is a reason its not done that way any more. Get over it.