Cal To Furlough 800 If T/a Fails

[tie1on]

according to sources in manpower planning the estimate is 800 furloughs to go out on 1 april if the tenative agreement fails..

 

[flyhard]

Ah yes the fear tactic. I have never seen or heard that before (sarcastic). The fact that pilots in general are cautious and conservative when it comes to decisions. Management plays it and is usually rewarded for it. The airline management need to find a way to pass the cost to the customer and stop making pilots write checks back to managment. Just my opinion.

 

[nimtz]

according to sources in manpower planning the estimate is 800 furloughs to go out on 1 april if the tenative agreement fails..

I see this is your first post tie1on. Welcome to the board.

Hey CAL has shown before it has smart people in manpower planning. Look back to the Spring 2003 where Debbie furloughed 150+ in anticipation of the Gulf War. CAL was obviously overstaffed cause I remember many of my buddies on the 737 that summer having their days rolled and flying 85 hours plus.

I also recall how many furloughed guys were sent back to Express, trained as captains on the 145, and then spending a whopping four months flying the line. Then all the sudden CAL manpower realized they didn't have quite enough bodies to beat up for another summer schedule. So those furloughees, after an eventful eight months, found themselves back in training on the very airplane they flew eight months previous. Great lesson in superior organization.

 

[G4G5]

Lets see: New poster with one previous post offers to spread fear:

Anyone else smell a mgt fear tactic?

 

[jbDC9]

according to sources in manpower planning the estimate is 800 furloughs to go out on 1 april if the tenative agreement fails..

Oh no, the sky is falling! The sky is falling!! I better vote yes on that piece of sh!t TA so I don't get furloughed!!!

Holy crap I'm tired of the company negotiating thru fear and intimidation, carrots and sticks... and using our own union and the Houston Chronicle to do it. And then there's the Kool Ade propaganda of the Daily News Update... a little bit of uplifting light reading to start your day. Joy...

 

[tie1on]

I AGREE THE KOOL-AID MACHINE IS IN FULL EFFECT. i DON'T THINK THE t/a WILL BE APPROVED. ONE SHALL SEE WHAT REALLY HAPPENS BY THE END OF THE MONTH.

 

[flyhard]

That is what needs to happen in this industry. One pilot group to call a bs management bluff and start reversing the cycle of this industry. Each and every airline knows that the next couple of years things are going to be on the up-swing. Labor costs need to be negotioated now so that management will have the leverage. Someone in this industry needs to hold up the bar and keep it there.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hold the bar!! Hold the line...

 

[Cardinal]

800 furloughs

[cough]bull$hit[/cough]

 

[SuperFLUF]

800 pilots? No way. Getting rid of 24 737-500's won't produce near that many, if ANY furloughs. We've got too many retirments coming up. Then again Flt Ops managment's egos are bigger than their brains so who knows?

The REAL threat is that if this deal gets shot down, the next one will suck even more and so on and so on. How big of a cut do I have to be forced into by the angry teamsters union, Soprano's wanna-be mob before they realize you only fight the battles you can win?

I am so amazed that pilots can learn from other's mistakes in the cockpit but refuse to apply that LOGIC in the real world. (Delta, Usair, United, what was that? Full pay to the last day?)

When we were voting for ALPA, we were told by the hard core unionists that ALPA's decades of experience and negotiating knowledge was worth the extra $$$ we have to PAY in dues.
NOW, ALPA's advisors don't have it right? Some pilot with a few contract negotiating cycles observed from the sidelines knows more than ALPA's top advisors?

Mike Abrahms, ALPA's top gun negotiating counsel, who has been negotiating airline contracts for more than 35 YEARS, says there is no better deal out there and if we reject this it will come back WORSE. This guy lives and breathes organized labor. Its in his blood, there's no sympathy for airline managment in him. Do I believe him or the line pilot "experts"? Why would a SMART person not go with the experts?

Yes, a concessionary agreement sucks. That's life, deal with the facts, make the smart choice and regroup for the battle when the odds are in our favor.

For those who like to go to Vegas and bet your entire life savings on a pair of snakeyes then go ahead, make the gamble. Because that's just what it is. A long shot gamble. With EVERYBODY'S money, not just your own.

 

[Cardinal]

FLUF, your points are well reasoned. Yet there isn't a clear lesson from the carriers you reference. USAir took concessions fairly early in the game. Their cockpit labor costs have been below Southwest's for a long time, yet the airline still hemorrhages cash. United's pilots could work an entire year for free and the airline woud still cough up blood. $200M or even 400M in concessions at Delta would be akin to urinating on a forest fire. At what point is it not the pilots fault?

This concessionary agreement, though painful, is a pretty small package in the grand scheme of things. $200 million looks like pocket change compared to agreements elsewhere. It's modesty then begs the question; Is it really necessary? As somebody put it on another thread, why do crews think they are in the business of buying airplanes? Management crows about high debt/equity right now, but not long ago they were buying back stock. That might make sense if you're Microsoft, but perhaps not in the net-loss-since-the-dawn-of-the-industry aviation game. Didn't their mother tell them to save for a rainy day? That day came, and now a third party is supposed to fix the damage?

 

[SuperFLUF]

.............. Didn't their mother tell them to save for a rainy day? That day came, and now a third party is supposed to fix the damage?

That's what makes this crap so hard to swallow. CAL pilots have been working under a "concessionary" contract for 7 years allready. Mgmt. has f-d up in many different ways. It all sucks and its not our fault. We allready gave at the office. However, that does not change the situation. It is what it is and no matter who's fault, certain things need to be done in order to attempt to steer this ship around the iceberg. If we hit the berg, the execs will be off on their golden lifeboats while the employees are stuck in steerage to go down with the ship.

This TA is pretty crappy as far as most CAL pilots are concearned. MAYBE the negotiators could have done better, who knows. But the choice is between this or somthing worse. This is the reality of the current situation. It sucks but it is what it is and there's no changing it. If you drive down the freeway looking at your rearview mirror..............well, you get the point. You can learn from the past but you can't make any progress if you're always looking behind you.

 

[jbDC9]

FLUF, your points are well reasoned. Yet there isn't a clear lesson from the carriers you reference. USAir took concessions fairly early in the game. Their cockpit labor costs have been below Southwest's for a long time, yet the airline still hemorrhages cash. United's pilots could work an entire year for free and the airline woud still cough up blood. $200M or even 400M in concessions at Delta would be akin to urinating on a forest fire. At what point is it not the pilots fault?

Yeah, what he said! And personally, I don't like the Kool Ade; I voted NO.

Consider this... don't you think this contract is just tooo long? 45 months? With NO snap back??? Are you telling me that when this piece of crap contract times out in 2009 or 2010, you're gonna be okay with pay rates 5% below Contract '97? What about inflation, cost of living increases, little things like that? With a 12-13 year contract and no snap back, we'll be so far in the hole we'll never get it back.

I can understand the need for concessions, and I'd be willing to vote yes on this TA if it were shorter duration and there were an upside... but there's not. Profit sharing? Stock options?? Who the hell cares, gimme my freakin' pay rates back.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Yeah, what he said! And personally, I don't like the Kool Ade; I voted NO.

Consider this... don't you think this contract is just tooo long? 45 months? With NO snap back??? Are you telling me that when this piece of crap contract times out in 2009 or 2010, you're gonna be okay with pay rates 5% below Contract '97? What about inflation, cost of living increases, little things like that? With a 12-13 year contract and no snap back, we'll be so far in the hole we'll never get it back.

I can understand the need for concessions, and I'd be willing to vote yes on this TA if it were shorter duration and there were an upside... but there's not. Profit sharing? Stock options?? Who the hell cares, gimme my freakin' pay rates back.

All of what you said is true. But why would you send this piece of $h!t back when the experts say the next one will only get worse? Just to make a point? Is that REALLY the smart move? We brought ALPA on property to get this expertise that we supposedly didn't have before. We've all paid extra dues money for it. And now when it will impact your pocket book in a big way you're not willing to listen to their advice?

This TA sucks, its concessionarry, of course its going to suck. You want pay rates instead of stock, he wants to cut the pay even more to try and keep the pension, she wants full deadhead pay, he wants a better reserve system.......etc. Can't please everyone. The question is: If you know the next one WILL be worse then why do you want the next one?

Managment has the advantage this time. They've got the gun to your head. Are you going to give up your watch and wallet and walk away with your life or are you going to put up a fight for the 5% chance you might turn the tables? What would your family want you to do cowboy?

 

[jbDC9]

This TA sucks, its concessionarry, of course its going to suck. You want pay rates instead of stock, he wants to cut the pay even more to try and keep the pension, she wants full deadhead pay, he wants a better reserve system.......etc. Can't please everyone. The question is: If you know the next one WILL be worse then why do you want the next one?

You're right, there's no way to keep everyone happy on any contract, much less a concessionary one. Other than the points I've mentioned above, another reason I voted no is the scare tactics employed by the company. Right now they want 500 million. But, if it's voted down, they're gonna need 800 million? Whaaat? How does that add up? The day after a possible "no" vote they need another 300 mil. In one day. I don't get it... They (the companyunion) threw this thing together so fast and put it out to us, I don't see how a "no" vote, then back to the table for another few weeks to fine tune it is gonna cost another 300 mil. I really don't see how the next offer could be any worse than this pile of crap.

And how about the FA's and mechanics? They're barely gonna feel a thing with their "concessions"... the FA's even get a 4% raise over the life of their contract. Why is it that the pilots are the ones taking it in the ass so hard and the others will barely even notice it? Yep, sounds fair to me...

But, having said that, I think this thing will pass. The scare tactics are working... guess we'll find out in 10 days.

 

[Air Biscuit]

SuperFLUF, how little are you willing to do this job for? Don't fall for scare tactics. Let management threaten a worse deal and then turn around and vote that pos down again. I'm sick of subsidizing my pay for cheap tickets so every peice of welfare trailer park trash can go for an airplane ride. If they want bankruptcy they will do it with or without concessions from the pilots. I would much rather have a judge work off contract 97 than this ta.

 

[SuperFLUF]

.............I voted no is the scare tactics employed by the company. Right now they want 500 million. But, if it's voted down, they're gonna need 800 million? Whaaat? How does that add up? The day after a possible "no" vote they need another 300 mil. In one day. I don't get it... They (the companyunion) threw this thing together so fast and put it out to us, I don't see how a "no" vote, then back to the table for another few weeks to fine tune it is gonna cost another 300 mil. I really don't see how the next offer could be any worse than this pile of crap..............

Its not just the company that says they will be looking for 800 mill. Its the ALPA Economic and Financial analyists, the lead negotiating counsel. All from ALPA national. You can question the motives of our MEC (I do) but its quite a jump to say that ALPA national is on managment's side.

As I'm sure you've heard the 500 mill is what they needed back in Oct when they thought oil would be a $42 a barrel. Then came Delta's stupi-fares & the oil increases. The Nigerian oil strike.......blah, blah, blah. The fare increases have taken only about $5/barrel off the oil hit. Even without this crap, if oil had stayed the same, the cash is draining. If you reject and go back to bargaining the cash is still draining. The lenders look at the cash on hand and the cost structure before they are willing to loan the money we need (cause that's where the real cash comes from 500-800 mill only gets us dressed up so the loans will come). If the cash goes down while the costs stay up then the costs need to go down even more to get the loans and attractive lease rates needed to put the international expansion in motion. That's why the next deal will be worse and so on and so on. Until just like Delta you end up selling your soul on the bankruptcy court steps.

Its just the $h!tty way the system plays into managment's hand. We are stuck with this system and we have to work within its rules. We'll get em back when times are good and labor unrest surpresses the stock prices and hits them in the wallet, but for now they've got the upper hand. It sucks but there is no way to change it. Shutting down the airline hurts us waaaay more than it hurts them.

 

[SuperFLUF]

................ I would much rather have a judge work off contract 97 than this ta....

And your courtroom expertise is?

ALPA's lead negotiating counsel. The one with over 35 years of airline contract negotiating and litigation experience. Says we're better off with the TA than the current agreement (which would be in section 6 RLA negotiations) in a bankruptcy court situation.

Sorry but I have to side with the experts.

As far as the pay goes, 9% off my current rate in the current financial environment is not there yet. That's your own individual decision. You can fall back on your law degree and years of practice so I'm sure your number is higher.

 

[Le Pilote]

The "next" one? There will be no next one. Vote each and every concessionary contract down. We need to stand up for this profession for once, instead of dragging ourselves through the dirt. I for one am completely embarrased that so many employee groups have permitted management (who are doing well, mind you) to force them to give back. Management's failures are OUR failures.

I am completely sick of the spineless and mindless people who feel that giving back will somehow set them above the rest of the pack. Givebacks have not helped USAir. Givebacks have not helped United. Pilot concessions are equated to putting a bandaid on your stomach when you have an ulcer. It might make you think you are doing something to help, but there is a major underlying problem that is continuing to get much worse. Yet we deny it exists.

So continue to be an ostrich. Put your head in the stand, and pretend it's not there. Pretend that your givebacks will help your company. It's all a myth. Soon reality will set in, and you'll find yourself without retirement. Not being able to make mortgage payments. Dipping into your children's college funds. Fighting to work to age 70 since you need the extra money for survival. Yes, it's helping alright.

Disgusting. No doubt people are afraid to admit they are an airline pilot to people they meet. Because that has come to mean "coward." People think that we all make $200,000 a year and work only 12-14 days a month. Yet we must instead educate them that "we don't make that, silly fool!" somehow thinking they will take pity and help our cause to regain respect for the profession. Taking out ads in the paper saying "I only make $17,000." That does nothing but make us look like fools.

So I implore you, do not giveback. Let management figure out the correct way to right this ship. Let them lead. I have never seen such a lack of leadership than I have from airline management. It is time for them to adjust to the changing market, not us. We are taking pay cuts in a time when the world's economy is forcing higher prices for food, gas, and other ammenities.

The aviators of years passed are probably rolling over in their graves right now at the cowardness and lack of guts displayed by the current batch of pilots.

A plus,

Le Pilote

 

[Air Biscuit]

And your courtroom expertise is?

ALPA's lead negotiating counsel. The one with over 35 years of airline contract negotiating and litigation experience. Says we're better off with the TA than the current agreement (which would be in section 6 RLA negotiations) in a bankruptcy court situation.

Sorry but I have to side with the experts.

As far as the pay goes, 9% off my current rate in the current financial environment is not there yet. That's your own individual decision. You can fall back on your law degree and years of practice so I'm sure your number is higher.

You say 9% like that is the only change. Look at the work rules. 50% for dead heading, loss of per diem rates. No more first class seats for rest periods, etc. etc. This ta looks like it already has been gutted by a bankruptcy judge. How much would it have cost to get full snap backs, plus a return on our investment? As far as I'm concerned if management were serious about the concessionary need they would have shown that they were willing to give the money back when things turn around. I'm sorry, but if you believe ALPA is 100% looking out for your best interests you are mistaken. They do not have a perfect track record when it comes to predicting the future. All you have to do is look at the r.j. a.k.a. carreer killer.