Cal To Furlough 800 If T/a Fails

[SuperFLUF]

............The aviators of years passed are probably rolling over in their graves right now at the cowardness and lack of guts displayed by the current batch of pilots. ...

You mean the aviators of the past from Pan Am or Eastern....etc.

A lot of good that socialist mentality did them eh? They sure showed everyone and changed the world with their sacrifice, no?

Captialism, good or bad, is the law of the land here in the US and the market eventually rules the day. Today's problems are deregulation finally coming to roost. We must ADAPT and then overcome. I believe pilots will eventually all be paid the same way managment gets paid. Base salary, performance bonuses, profit sharing, stock options..............etc.
The past 26 years since deregulation has proven we can't beat the system so we have to join it.

 

[SuperFLUF]

................ I'm sorry, but if you believe ALPA is 100% looking out for your best interests you are mistaken. They do not have a perfect track record when it comes to predicting the future. All you have to do is look at the r.j. a.k.a. carreer killer.

The question isn't whether or not ALPA is the all knowing savior of the industry.

The question is, do I listen to you. The all knowing airline captain or the pro-labor lifetime ALPA attorney who's been doing this for longer than your or I have been alive?

If you don't think this TA could be a whole hell of a lot worse then who's kidding who? That certainly makes my decision of who to believe a lot easier. Sorry but I'm going with experience over emotion.

 

[Air Biscuit]

The question isn't whether or not ALPA is the all knowing savior of the industry.

The question is, do I listen to you. The all knowing airline captain or the pro-labor lifetime ALPA attorney who's been doing this for longer than your or I have been alive?

If you don't think this TA could be a whole hell of a lot worse then who's kidding who? That certainly makes my decision of who to believe a lot easier. Sorry but I'm going with experience over emotion.

Sure this ta could be worse. We all know that, but I sure wouldn't agree to getting bent over without being forced. If financing has to come off of my sweaty back they can reward me with snap backs in pay plus a return on investment. No snap backs no deal. Looks to me like United and U are still finding financing even in bankruptcy.

 

[Le Pilote]

No SuperFLUF, we have been adapting. The best we can under the terms of our employment. We are pilots, not CEOs. The people who are not reacting is management. They still believe the old regulated airline model will work in current times. It does not. But instead of adapting and changing with the times, they blame their workforce for their errors. And we pay for it, out of pocket and quality of life.

I wish I could make millions living in the past, making uneducated decisions based on emotion rather than reason. It is not any single management group, either. It is the group as a whole, combined, fighting each other. There are forward thinkers in management, don't get me wrong. We see that with the leadership of some CEOs and other management personnel. They are few and far between, however. It's become a fight for who can be bigger and better, not who can make money. Now none of us are making money. The mistakes of management have hurt us all. BECAUSE WE LET THEM.

Why exactly do you feel concessions are necessary? To save the company? Why is that your job? Last I checked, our job was the operate the aircraft safely and effectively. Somehow, somewhere, pilots have decided the burden lay upon them to lead the employee groups in deciding the fate of their airline. Stop doing that. It's not your job. Just do your job the best you can, and ensure that the company properly compensates you for it.

If we would just focus on doing our jobs, instead of pretending we have any control over the direction a company goes, we'd be much better off.

Concessions have a temporary affect on the company, but a permanent affect on our careers and livelihood. Your concessions will be worthless if management does not react to the changing air transportation environment. Look around you: Concessions will not save bankrupcy. It may stall it, but it will not save it. Look at United, USAir, and possibly soon Delta.

With our decisions for concessions (particuarly at the regional level, a la Comair, Air Wisconsin, ACA/Independence), we are turning this career from something of respect to cheap blue-collar labor. We complain about the changed perceptions of pilots within the general public; the perceptions have changed due to our own lack of self-respect, not because the job is different.

CAL is the end of the line. If they give, all the legacy carriers will have given up all that was achieved in pay and work rule improvements for the years leading up to this downturn. These changes will have irreversable results.

A plus,

Le Pilote

 

[Le Pilote]

If financing has to come off of my sweaty back they can reward me with snap backs in pay plus a return on investment. No snap backs no deal.

Exactly! Why should anyone be expected to give, but yet receive nothing in return? You are handing management a gift. A repreive of the level of compensation in this downturn, so they can use that money to purchase aircraft and grow. They want to grow. They need to grow. But they claim they won't if you don't give concessions? Please. Management needs growth just as much as the pilots want it. But nobody should give up something without expecting something equal in return.

Look at the retirements alone. I am curious to see over the next five years how the change in pay from a retiree leaving and a new-hire coming would affect the company's finances. In pay and benefits. Please, someone educate us on the math. Has ALPA taken this into account? $200,000 a year with associated benefits to $30,000 a year with associated benefits is quite a change. We all know the amount of retirements expected at CAL in the coming years.

A plus,

Le Pilote

 

[AA717driver]

Unless you get the ramp and mechs to sign a contract that mirrors your concessions, don't do it.

At TWA we subsidized the IAM's contracts by working for crap wages. "If the pilots sign, the rest of the employees will go along." Yeah, right. Right up to the end, we had bag smashers making $60k with all the double and triple overtime and sick leave.

Not one dime we gave up saved any of us our jobs. Good luck.TC

 

[stillflyn]

Voting in a concessionary TA will not save a pilot from a furlough. That has been thrown out at every airline that has taken concessions and it didn't save me at UAL or the guys at US Air, TWA, AA, DAL......... If you want to give money away, give it to a homeless shelter or some other good cause. They would put your hard earned money to a better use than your mgmt will!!!

 

[dogg]

I wonder if pilots could look at concessions as a financing package to their respective airline. If they took that approach then it would be reasonable to ask for such things as a comprehensive business plan, an in depth analysis of corporate financing, resumes of all of the major decision makers(ie ceo, cfo, vice presidents etc...), a thorough review of operational performance and of course terms of the financing such as interest and a re-payment schedule.. Then after this thorough review, the pilots could come back and dictate the terms of the package with such items as: replacing under-performing or un-qualified managers, make adjustments and repairs to operating structures to eliminate wasteful practices, proper pricing of the product being sold to assure timeley re-payment of the loan etc.....

Because concessions are a loan.......and if you went into any financial institution in the country with the drivel that spews from airline ceo's and asked for a loan the size of which they are asking for without providing the aforementioned items they would call security and have you arrested for excessive crack cocaine usage.......So ask for their plan and only when they have provided it in detail should you then vote to approve or disapprove of the loan...... any thing else is to throw good money after bad.......

 

[jbDC9]

Le Pilote, you're my new hero... right on the money.

Its just the $h!tty way the system plays into managment's hand. We are stuck with this system and we have to work within its rules. We'll get em back when times are good and labor unrest supresses the stock prices and hits them in the wallet, but for now they've got the upper hand. It sucks but there is no way to change it. Shutting down the airline hurts us waaaay more than it hurts them.

Man... you've had too much Kool Ade. Do you actually believe that we'll get anything back when times are better? Forget it, it ain't happening. This is pretty much a permanent pay/benefit/workrules cut. "...labor unrest supresses the stock prices and hits them in the wallet" I'm not sure what you mean by that, but if hasn't (labor unrest) happened by now, it ain't happening. "It sucks but there is no way to change it." So you're just gonna roll over and take it in the ass? I think there is a way to change it, and it's to vote NO and get these fukkers back to the table to work it out. They're not gonna shut down the d@mn airline over a NO vote... it just might show management that the pilots have grown a spine and aren't going to take it anymore... maybe they'll see the light (doubtful though) and change the way they run the ship. Management needs to stop blaming labor for the industry's woes.

Sorry for the rant, I'll zip it now.

 

[SuperFLUF]

................So you're just gonna roll over and take it in the ass? I think there is a way to change it, and it's to vote NO and get these fukkers back to the table to work it out. They're not gonna shut down the d@mn airline over a NO vote... it just might show management that the pilots have grown a spine and aren't going to take it anymore... maybe they'll see the light (doubtful though)

I went to the first roadshow with that thought in mind. However, after LISTENING to what the LABOR union experts have to say, they changed my mind. Have you even been to a roadshow or is listening to financial analysts and labor attorneys beneath you?

Back again to the undeniable fact that the allmighty ALPA (which I voted against and I would bet you lobbied for) says that if we vote this down the next deal will be worse. Why the F--- did we go through all this mess to get them on property if we're not even going to listen to them? I sure could use that extra dues money back.

The hypocrisy of the radical unionists just drives me nuts.........

"ALPA, ALPA, ALPA we won't ever get a good contract without their expertise and negotiating experience"
"my negotiating comittee speaks for me"................uhhhh ok well then
"the newark reps speak for me"..................uhhhhhhh ok well then
"ALPA doesn't know what the hell they're talking about, vote this piece of $h!t down!"

Where's the frickin logic in that?

I've voted against agreements in the past and stood my ground to get more, but you pick your battles. A smart soldier knows when to fight and when to make a tactical withdrawl.

I have no delusions about changing your mind but you have to admit that its a bit hypcritical to say that I'm drinking the kool aid when I'm just repeating what my LABOR union has told me.

 

[rtmcfi]

A smart soldier knows when to fight and when to make a tactical withdrawl.

Well, then make this a tactical withdrawl. Not a full fledged, tail-between-the-legs retreat.

This needs to be a short term deal, with some sort of snap back. I have no problem helping out the boss when times are tough. I just don't want to be standing there with my d&*k in my hand when times turn better....

 

[Boeingman]

I went to the first roadshow with that thought in mind. However, after LISTENING to what the LABOR union experts have to say, they changed my mind. Have you even been to a roadshow or is listening to financial analysts and labor attorneys beneath you?

Never mind....I deleted this. If you'd like an opinion I'd be happy to PM you.

 

[SuperFLUF]

OK, let me put it this way. Show me how I'm wrong to belive my union.

Someone tell me why your opinion is correct and the ALPA national lead negotiating counsel with over 35 years of experience negotiating airline contracts for ALPA is wrong. (Along with the ALPA E,F&A team and our own independent investment bankers)

What makes you more qualified and believable than them?

 

[jbDC9]

I went to the first roadshow with that thought in mind. However, after LISTENING to what the LABOR union experts have to say, they changed my mind. Have you even been to a roadshow or is listening to financial analysts and labor attorneys beneath you?

Yep, went to the IAH road show, the IAH CEO exchange, I read the TA "highlights". Didn't change my mind at all. Again, I don't mind helping the company out in tough times... but we need a real snap-back and a shorter duration. When things turn around and get better in a year or two, like rtmcfi said, we're gonna be standing around with our dicks in our hands, the company won't renegotiate early, because we know how management thinks... "A contract is a contract", and they'll stick it out 'til '09 or '10. If things don't turn around? Oh well, it won't be our fault, it'll be because management keeps dropping the ball. Like the others have said, this 500 mil is no guarantee that we'll stay out of bankruptcy. I also heard that at the roadshow...

 

[fletch717]

Superfluf, How could ALPA be wrong? just ask any Eastern pilot. More recently CCAIR( USAIR Express),Comair, and ATA.

 

[SuperFLUF]

......... When things turn around and get better in a year or two, like rtmcfi said, we're gonna be standing around with our dicks in our hands, the company won't renegotiate early, because we know how management thinks... "A contract is a contract", and they'll stick it out 'til '09 or '10. .................... Like the others have said, this 500 mil is no guarantee that we'll stay out of bankruptcy. I also heard that at the roadshow...

So did your hear the part (or take the time to read it) that gets us back to todays earnings if the company makes $500 mil profit (EBITDAR numbers before taxes and writeoffs)? If we essentially make the same as breaking even today (before $500 mil in employee concessions) the profit sharing gets us the 9% rate reduction back in cash + additional B fund and 401K contributions. If we make more that that (the same as making a profit today) then we make more than we currently make . Of course its NOT the same as the current contract as we still lose some of the work rule give backs but its not quite standing around with your Gordon Bethune in your hand either. Obviously the MEC and ALPA national must be lying about that.

Did you hear the part where the attorney said we would be much better off in bankrutpcy with the TA than the current contract?

Oh wait, the union is lying about that too. They've all got managment jobs lined up, they'll divy up the stock options amongst themselves and ALPA national is just trying to get us below United's pay to set us up for bottom of the seniority list when the merger happens.

Oh yeah, and it was Duane Worth and Jay Panarello in the Zapruder film on the grassy knoll...................

 

[Air Biscuit]

SuperFLUF, ALPA along with Duane Worthless and the lawyers will endorse and "sell" every ta that passes in front of them. He supported Mesa along with every other pos ALPA regional contract out there that is dragging down the industry. ALPA is about money, your dues money and that is it. If an MEC approves something the ALPA lawyers will sell it. If this was a true union he would be calling for a nationwide walkout. It's been long over due.

 

[AAflyer]

SuperFLUF,

Take a look at the numbers yourself, do your own research. Does the cost savings you and the other employees are going to give really take you out of harms way, the cost of oil right now has essentially eaten your concessions.

If you sign on the line, you will hire 400 pilots, and if you do not you will loose 800 ( Isn't that almost 20% of your pilots.) So, CALs only change to their business plan is to ask for concessions?

Haven't you learned from the crap we went through. Heck, we are right up the street from you. Our big concessions were supposed to prevent massive furloughs. We are now approaching 3000.

You are asking why you should not trust your leadership, and I am telling you from experience here and talking to other pilots from the legacies, people will look at for numero uno, be it in the form of managment positions, items in the contract that do not really affect them, or anything else they can get their hands on.

You should read "Confessions of a Union Buster". You are being played.

AAflyer

If oil goes to $60 then what, they haven't changed their model, and they haven't raised the cost of their ticket, you now will loose more of your pay to subsidize the flying public. The fact the company IS NOT SELLING THEIR PRODUCT FOR WHAT IT COSTS SHOULD MAKE YOU LIVID11111

 

[Cardinal]

If neither management's nor the union's testimony is valid, how about considering what the market thinks of CALs heath?

As of March 23rd:

$754,000,000 Market Cap.
1.38 Price to Book Value ratio.
$1.7 Billion in cash, $5.5 Billion in long-term debt.
Stock consistently trading at mid-2002 prices.

If the market thinks CAL is an ongoing proposition, why don't we?

 

[Boeingman]

I wrote a fairly long list of real problems with this TA and decided not to make them public. If you can prove you're a CO pilot, ask me for a PM and I'll send it to you.

I ask that anyone who feels the need to vote for this TA ask themself a question.

When the management starts taking millions out of the company in 2006
for bonuses and god knows what else, how are you going to feel working under a substandard contract (compared even to C97) for the next several years?