CAL--This can't be real...

[Beechnut]

In Alaska's World you do not want to deice for a light powder. To do so would be foolish. Why add liquid to a bone dry cold soaked wing? It will be froze up rock solid before you get to the runway. If the powder on the wing comes off with a breath of wind, we are good to go on the Arctic. I think the Continential Chief got it right - but his troops have been so trained to go for the type II if they see a snowflake that he has to recant his statement. When ever I see a jet getting deiced for a dab of powder on a -30 wing, I just see $100 bills flying out the end of the hose, what a waste.

What's that got to do with that day in Newark?

S.

 

[720persecond]

If I worked for CAL I d send him an email asking him to come with a broom next time I have to deice. It's much cheaper than Type I

 

[Caveman]

As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. The CP's point about a herd mentality is valid. How many times have we seen a/c that just made a quick turn head out to the de-ice line because everybody else was in line? They just landed, the airframe is clean but they went and got in line with all the lightly frosted originating a/c that have been cold-soaked for the last 8 hours.

OTOH there are too many eyeballs watching us day in and day out to not take an extremely conservative approach in everything we do. It's the same old story, if you don't deice and something minor happens that really has nothing to do with deicing the question will always be, "Why didn't you deice?". Look at the recent fiasco in JFK with JetBlue. Despite everybody trying to do the right thing and play by the rules some crews are being taken to task by the feds for departing when the ATIS was indicating ice pellets. The fact that at the time there weren't any ice pellets is irrelevant to the feds. The Captain's real time observation doesn't count. The ATIS said so, it must be so. You can't win no matter what you do.

Personally, if I have accumulated snow on the airframe, powder or not, I'm getting deiced. I don't know whether or not it will blow off on the takeoff roll. Besides, every definition I've ever read says I can't depart with frozen stuff adhering to the airplane. Depart in my book means to start down the runway. How is it possible to do that legally with snow on the a/c? As soon as we start to roll we are 'departing'. It has to be clean before I can depart. It doesn't say I can depart with snow as long as it clears up within 1 minute, or 30 seconds, or 15 minutes, or any other time. It has to be clean before I add T/O power. YMMV.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

What's that got to do with that day in Newark?

S.

Not much, even if it is 10 Degrees F. When you end taxiing for 45 minutes behind someone else, and the jetblast causes the "loose" flurries to melt and refreeze on your wing, you can guarantee the little "chiefy" will disappear from sight when a cellphone video of your upper wing surface shows up on the "O'Reilly Factor"

I thought the "chiefy's" clarification letter was dumber than the first. Don't take it as an insult CAL, every "chiefy" hired at my major has had their "bags" removed before their first day on duty.

 

[eaglefly]

How can you tell what's going to adhere and what's not ?

I suppose those 25-30 CAL planes should've taxied out and lined up for takeoff LOOKING like Air Florida. I'm sure the pax would have been going insane, not to mention any deadheading pilots.

Now who knows, MAYBE all of them would have lifted off nicely. Maybe one woudn't have. The idiot who wrote that Letter has now jeopardized CAL with regard to belief in the propriety of takeoffs with the "clean aircraft" concept. Should that little ditty make it home to some crew and they assume no adherance and are wrong, the lawyers for the next-of-kin of their victims will barbeque CAL for safety issues. I believe lawyers refer to that as "culpable negligence"

This Letter is now OUT THERE for use against CAL in the future.

That moron is not only an incompetant idiot for producing such rubbish, someones will be in the doghouse for publicly publishing it.

CAL's lawyers HAVE to be groaning right now.

 

[eaglefly]

Got this off another website. Come on, CAL guys, this has to be a hoax:

--------------------------

*CAL** Safety Update*

February 23, 2007

On Feb. 9, 2007, the EWR Chief Pilot’s Office distributed the following
B-737 Update:

I woke up Wednesday morning and departed for work. I found my car under
an unexpected covering of loose powdery snow. I brushed it off the
windshield, and departed. As I accelerated up the street, the snow
readily blew off my car as I expected it would. When I arrived in EWR
that morning, it was apparent to me that we were in the midst of a
full-blown de-icing operation with our morning bank of planes, for
exactly the same conditions as I found with my car that morning: Loose
powdery snow covering the surfaces of the aircraft. Outside temperature
was well below freezing. Was de-icing warranted that morning? It’s my
opinion it was NOT. Flight Manual Sec 3, page 349 states, “The check to
determine the need for de-icing is an examination of critical aircraft
surfaces to ensure they are free of any ADHERING ice, snow, slush, or
frost. It was more than my opinion that morning that the loose powdery
snow would have departed almost immediately during the takeoff roll; I
actually did an inspection of an aircraft parked at the gate, to
determine actual conditions. Flight Ops Manual Sec 9, cites FAR 121.629,
which says the same about adhering contamination. Yet there was a
line-up of at least 25-30 aircraft waiting to be de-iced, and more to
follow. It was my opinion (and it appears that I am full of opinions
today) that this was a herd mentality. One aircraft asks to be de-iced,
and everyone else follows suit. In light of my continued message
regarding safety, this may seem contradictory. Believe me, I am in no
way suggesting that you compromise safety. Instead, I am suggesting that
we understand the conditions, and exercise common sense. This was an
opportunity to not only be safe, but to be efficient as well. Remember
that Professional statement I mentioned above. It was suggested by
someone that he would not take the chance that a lawyer may be seated in
row 13, as he was approaching the runway for takeoff with snow on his
wings. My answer to that is to make an announcement to the passengers
stating your intentions. Again, Safety and Common Sense prevails, but
knowledge is power.

-----------------------

And I thought all the Icahn-era TWA management pukes had retired... TC

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

 

[MJG]

While I agreee that it would be nice to save the company a few bucks on de-icing costs, it only takes one crash to wipe out all of those potential savings, many times over.

You can easily look at the visible surface of your aircraft and make a relatively good judgement as to whether or not the white stuff is sticking to the surfaces that you CAN see. However, in no way shape or form can you make a good judgement as to whether or not the white stuff is sticking to the surfaces you CAN'T see.

One could argue that you could infer from what you are seeing on the wings, is also what's occuring on the other surfaces of your aircraft.

But I ask you this: Are you willing to bet not only your life, but the life of your crew and all of your passengers on that?

I'm not.

I once took an aircraft from a crew that had just brought it in from an outstation where they had been de-iced (or so they thought). Had my FO not been standing in the jetway when the aircraft pulled up and observed the bizzare behaivor of both the Captain and FO of that flight upon arrival, he would have never thought to ask the Flight Attendant what was going on. THANK GOD he did because she mentioned something about the crew saying that the plane was flying weird and they thought they might have and ice build up on the tail. Neither the Captain or the First Officer on that flight mentioned ANYTHING to my FO who was standing there the whole time. They both even bolted out the jetway door to apparently look at the tail after the passengers deplaned. Seeing nothing out of the ordinary they kept it to themselves. When I arrived at the aircraft and the FO told me about what he had witnessed and what the inbound FA had said, we asked to have the tail of the aircraft checked out by someone in a bucket truck. Sure enough there was about a quarter inch high ridge of ice exteding from the root of each side of the horizontal stab out towards the tip. The ice had formed on the top of the HS aft of the heated leading edge and apparently had been the cause of the unusual flight characteristics of the aircraft, especially upon landing. This airplane was perfectly clean on all surfaces with no indication that there was any kind of ice build up anywhere.

Fly safe but don't take things for granted.

 

[COpilot]

DC-9 DEN Nov. 1987

 

[AlbieF15]

My wife and oldest will be traveling to NYC in April. If any of you guys are flying and have a late spring snow flurry, I would appreciate the extra time and cost it takes to de-ice your plane. It may be herd mentality, but there's a few in that herd that are VERY special to me.

You don't want to de-ice? Cool. Get your @ss away from the desk, be a captain, and go fly. You have the option to pass the car wash if you choose.

And yeah...CAL guys...print, copy, and save that letter. You just might find it handy one day...

 

[GogglesPisano]

You never know when the FAA is watching, writing down tail numbers. I wouldn't want to be the guy who does things differently. Your ticket is on the line at all times. If I save the company a few grand in fluid, I do not benefit from that. If I get violated for "going my own way," I will definitely be at a loss. How many company's would back a captain up in a situation llike this?

 

[Angrypoodle]

None.

 

[A350]

He is correct about the herd mentality.....the FAA can write down tail numbers all day long. If your aircraft is clean....leave. If it isn't, get it cleaned off.....

Years back I got on a snow covered DC-9 in YYZ. I got up on the wing and with my hands moved the snow around. I told the Captain that it was covered in loose, flaky snow and with the 20 kt wind it should blow off. We loaded, taxiied out, and I went back to look. As we were taxiing down the taxiway, the snow peeled off clean as a whistle. Of course, it was like 18 degrees F. No need to go and have wet fluid put on the aircraft to help the snow stick.

Today, I don't think I would do the same thing. I would go to the car wash and have them use the air to blow it off. The new de-ice trucks have air flow to help clean the aircraft off. It works great for airframe ice you get on cloudy, non precipitation days.

A350

 

[eaglefly]

Of course, if that snow blew back into the engines and caused a power interuption and/or loss and you failed to make a safe climb (or worse), would that be YOUR fault. Additionally, if you're confident that snow cloud in your takeoff wasn't going to cause THAT problem, did you move ALL the snow "around". Was the top of the tailplane checked too ?

That surface is even MORE critical than the wing, being a thinner airfoil and asked to support more weight per area.

My guess is you didn't and advanced thrust on hope, not certainty.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

Around ten years ago I visted my brother near Worcester, MA in January. Asked for a jumpseat on a BE-1900 for the morning departure. I was given a seat in the back. The airplanes had a couple of inches of fresh powdery snow on the wings. I saw the FO brush some away with his hands while walking around the aircraft. Then he came onboard, the door was closed, and we started up and began to taxi. I assumed we were going somewhere to get deiced. I was wrong. Next thing I knew we were rolling down the runway. I was nervous, but the snow did all blow off before we rotated.

The flight continued to La Guadia, and upon arriving I thanked the Captain for the ride. I wanted to ask him what the hell he was doing but decided not to in front of departing pax and the FO.

I agree with most everyone here. Sure, chances are the snow will blow off. But until the FAA approves of such a procedure, I believe the only option is to deice the aircraft prior to taking the runway.

 

[Way2Broke]

DC-9 DEN Nov. 1987

I thought of the exact same tragedy as I read this.