CAL RFP's 70 Seaters (turboprops)

[BluDevAv8r]

Considering Horizon and ASA are the only companies currently operating 70 seat props... I hope we at least put in a bid.

You left out Island Air in Hawaii. They fly Q400's.

-Neal

 

[beechcowboy]

Hello,
I am not an expert, but I think it was only a matter of time before the airlines realized that they could no longer econically operate 50-seat RJs on routes of less than 300 miles. It is going to be interesting to see who bids on these proposals. I can't see Horizon or ASA bidding on the contracts for two distinctly different reasons. Horizon is wholly-owned by Alaska Air Group and their operations are primarily in the west coast and I think that they want to keep it that way. ASA on the other hand has unanswered labor questions, and my understanding is that the ATR was on it's way out, but I think it's been "on-it's-way-out" for 3 years now...Again, I merely speculating why these two companies will probably not bid.
The only airlines that will bid are airlines that are financially leveraged to come up with the capital required to purchase/lease the aircraft. Although, Bombardier/ATR may make the terms on a par with Airbus to get the orders. There are two airlines that come to mind simply because they already have operations in both areas in the RFP; Colgan and Commutair. Both already operate as CAL Connection, and have low-cost operations. It would be in the strategic interest of both of these companies to bid on the contract. If not,
someone else will and may very well run them both out of business in the long-term by expanding into their markets/codeshares offering newer aircraft and a better product.
Airlines and the airline customer will be facing a very different world as we enter the second half of the decade. Airlines will continue to reduce capacity and increase fares as a result of supply and demand. This is the only way that the yields off ticket sales will keep up with $70.00/barrel of oil. This reinforces the theory of modern technology turboprops. The flying public typically doesn't care what they fly on as long as it departs/arrives on time with their luggage. Airline managers need to drop the "seemless service" philosophy of having 100% jet service that typically isn't either seemless or good service.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

Colgan needs to worry about more than bidding on new flying. They can hardly keep their a/c properly maintained as it is. The chickens will come home to roost for this organization b/c they simply are average in all areas. Rumors of Colgan going larger have been around since I came and went. Bottom line, they provide a below average service that would actually be worse if they weren't lucky enough to hire some good people. I just hope everyone safely makes it home at the end of the day. BTW, if you are such a turboprop / Colgan advocate, as most of your post indicate, why did you leave Colgan for PSA, only to return after an unsuccessful attempt at the jet? Is it b/c you truly believe the turboprop is best, or b/c that is where you have ended up? I only say this b/c I am sick and tired of everyone's perceived immortality when it comes to bashing the 50 seat operators. I think my company does a fantastic job, and as far as I am concerned, we are setting the bar pretty high on how to run an operationally efficient airline. And yes, polls have shown that the flying public hates flying on most t-props b/c they are so noisy. If they do, it is often out of necessity. All this being said, whatever will happen, will happen. I just fly the plane!

 

[FutureHeavyAC]

Dont forget......

What about Cape Air.....has the CAL code share and new cretificate for ATR flying.

 

[arthompson]

The Q400 is quiter than most jets. It's one of the reasons why QX has done so well

 

[DashTrash400]

The Q400 is quiter than most jets. It's one of the reasons why QX has done so well

At least for the three airplanes that still have a working ANVS... :laugh:

 

[Kaman]

Hey Cowboy,
Not sure if I know exactly who you are, but you obviously know me from CJC past. I am neither bashing nor cheering RJ carriers or turboprop carriers respectively. I am simply stating what current market forces and costs are driving the industry to.
On a personal level I do resent your making this personal by discussing my own career woes in a public forum. I have no idea why you would have done that unless you have an axde to grind with Colgan. I suggest that you take that somewhere else, because I certainly made no personal attacks or hurled any insults at a particular pilot group or airline.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Prop2Jet]

I am an advocate of Colgan! I think it would be great to c them get new or bigger airplanes. The market demands such a turboprop operation. It just makes sense. Ahhh the rise of turboprop again! Funny how this whole thing worked out....

 

[ScumBum]

Cape Air

I would think Cape Air is especially well suited to bid and receive the Newark flying. I think there was always the intent to start flying the ATRs in Guam for CO and then add service back here.

A while back I had heard they were approached by CO for Newark TP flying but hadn't heard anything in the past year.

They provide great service and although I don't work for them have heard lots of good stuff from those that do. Good company.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I think it will be tough for any airline with the exception of possibly QX to field a fleet of 24 70 seat turboprops. I doubt Candair can get them out the door quickly enough without adversely impacting CRJ deliveries. ATR's could be a different story but they are more expensive to operate.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Dave - What you talkin' about?

The ATR goes slower, but burns 1/3 less gas than the zoomin Q400's. The Dash is built on a completely separate line than the RJ's. It's the Brit. / Irish side of Canadair - the De Havilland folks. I would bid either one if the schedules were decent. (No, not after your flying, I'm just saying if one showed up on the ramp it would be more fun than an RJ)

If the ATR's were built anywhere but France and had any product support - those plastic winged yellow, red and white bugged beasts would be ubiquitous.

At ASA we have to tell the French how the electrical system works. Turns out that Avions Transport de Regional is to Aerospatial as ASA is to a decent airline. As soon as the engineers can, the go get the better jobs - leaving no one that knows anything about the product.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave - What you talkin' about?

The ATR goes slower, but burns 1/3 less gas than the zoomin Q400's. The Dash is built on a completely separate line than the RJ's. It's the Brit. / Irish side of Canadair - the De Havilland folks. I would bid either one if the schedules were decent. (No, not after your flying, I'm just saying if one showed up on the ramp it would be more fun than an RJ)

Isn't the CASM for the Q-400 much lower due to the difference in speed? The breakeven load factor for QX is somewhere around 27 pax for those aircraft. I'd guess MX costs might be much higher on the ATR but I could be wrong. Frankly I don't care who gets that flying. If I wanted to live in EWR or HOU I'd apply with CO. You won't see me volunteering for anything more than 2 hours away from a west coast beach. Hope you guys get a shot at the flying.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

If the ATR's were built anywhere but France and had any product support - those plastic winged yellow, red and white bugged beasts would be ubiquitous.

At ASA we have to tell the French how the electrical system works. Turns out that Avions Transport de Regional is to Aerospatial as ASA is to a decent airline. As soon as the engineers can, the go get the better jobs - leaving no one that knows anything about the product.

Perhaps they should stick to what they know best? Wines and cheeses?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Flip, I dunno. Had lunch at the Sweetwater Brewery. That 420 is some supremely excellent stuff.

The maintenance on the ATR is nothing (if you don't have to order a part from France) - ASA was getting 15,500 hours between hot sections. The airplane is very simple to operate, it just does not fly like an airplane. Think of a dump truck with no power steering and a severely AFT CG and you will be close. Same engines as an E120 - twice the airplane - makes for cheap operations.

I hope we all, each and every one of us, gets to keep our flying and stops this cross bidding race for the bottom crap. I'm beating the drum to wrap up some decent scope language at ASA and tie up Skywest so at least we have a home in this family.

 

[beechcowboy]

Hey Cowboy,
Not sure if I know exactly who you are, but you obviously know me from CJC past. I am neither bashing nor cheering RJ carriers or turboprop carriers respectively. I am simply stating what current market forces and costs are driving the industry to.
On a personal level I do resent your making this personal by discussing my own career woes in a public forum. I have no idea why you would have done that unless you have an axde to grind with Colgan. I suggest that you take that somewhere else, because I certainly made no personal attacks or hurled any insults at a particular pilot group or airline.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

I know 2 pilots who have an axe to grind with Colgan; unfortunately they are not with us any longer. Here's to you Colgan mx, with your outdated, unrevised mx manuals and your malfunctioning elevator trim! Drink one for our departed friends who paid the price for your mistakes. Colgan with 70 seats = more mx problems and more NTSB paperwork. Based on how they run their biz, treat their employees, and the quality of their training, I hope they never see more a/c. Low cost does not equal better in their case.

Southwest runs a low cost airline b/c they run efficiently w/ timely hedges, Colgan runs a low cost airline b/c they cut corners and pay low wages. As to your personal background, I just find it hippocritical that you can be such an advocate for Colgan "the super t-prop" operator, when you were once so negative on them and bailed.... only to come back. Nuff said. You could never convince me that Colgan deserves to win any more flying, much less for CAL.

 

[Icelandair]

The Q400 is quiter than most jets. It's one of the reasons why QX has done so well

Depends where you sit. If you sit right next to the engines they are quite loud, but if you sit in the back row they are surprisingly quiet.