CAL May Get Heathrow

[RJAA]

I am sure you mean one of HAM, TXL or CGN. These places will lose money big time with widebodies especially in the winter. Pretty obvious. And re-dispatch does not always benefit when you compare it with 5% fuel reserve flight plan. Also it does not help when the international EWR arrivals from the north have to decend down to 16,000ft at ALB or BOS.

 

[zonker]

It will be a moot point when we lose our route authority when we advertise a nonstop flight that isnt nonstop.

DL finds a way to make money with 767s. We should do likewise.

 

[Crucianpilot]

DL finds a way to make money with 767s. We should do likewise.[/quote]

Exactly, they have flown 76s on those routes for years.

 

[RJAA]

DL finds a way to make money with 767s. We should do likewise.

[/quote] Exactly, they have flown 76s on those routes for years.[/quote]

BS!! They have not, Delta does not fly to HAM or CGN. I bet Delta's TXL B767 loses money out the a$$ in the winter. So Delta makes money on the B767s, is this why they just got something like 14 B757s, put some winglets on and replacing some of the B767 routes with B757s to fly over the pond just like what Continental does? Places like AMS, FRA and BRU from JFK are on the list for the downgrade. Is this why Northwest is scrambling to retrofit their B757s with winglets to fly over the pond from DTW? No way to rave about the B757s streching them all out from northern Germany, but it seems like others are following suit.

 

[Crucianpilot]

BS!! They have not, Delta does not fly to HAM or CGN. I bet Delta's TXL B767 loses money out the a$$ in the winter. So Delta makes money on the B767s, is this why they just got something like 14 B757s, put some winglets on and replacing some of the B767 routes with B757s to fly over the pond just like what Continental does? Places like AMS, FRA and BRU from JFK are on the list for the downgrade. Is this why Northwest is scrambling to retrofit their B757s with winglets to fly over the pond from DTW? No way to rave about the B757s streching them all out from northern Germany, but it seems like others are following suit.[/quote]

How are you so sure they lose their a$$ on those routes. One of my good friends manages ANA out of JFK. Their widebodies are money making machines everytime they fly. Why? One word, freight. That is were the money is. Passenger revenue is icing on the cake. The cargo is what makes the company money on the flight. The freight, and that is what you can't carry on the 757s flying those routes. That is why you need a widebody.

 

[RJAA]

BS!! They have not, Delta does not fly to HAM or CGN. I bet Delta's TXL B767 loses money out the a$$ in the winter. So Delta makes money on the B767s, is this why they just got something like 14 B757s, put some winglets on and replacing some of the B767 routes with B757s to fly over the pond just like what Continental does? Places like AMS, FRA and BRU from JFK are on the list for the downgrade. Is this why Northwest is scrambling to retrofit their B757s with winglets to fly over the pond from DTW? No way to rave about the B757s streching them all out from northern Germany, but it seems like others are following suit.

How are you so sure they lose their a$$ on those routes. One of my good friends manages ANA out of JFK. Their widebodies are money making machines everytime they fly. Why? One word, freight. That is were the money is. Passenger revenue is icing on the cake. The cargo is what makes the company money on the flight. The freight, and that is what you can't carry on the 757s flying those routes. That is why you need a widebody.

How do you know Delta is making money in TXL on year aound basis?? I think you underestimate the huge cost of operating a widebody. You compare the cargo revenue potential of between the two of the most busiest financial capitals of the world with the 2nd tier German cities and argue how HAM, CGN and TXL deserves a widebody. That is apples to orages.

I agree Continental does need more widebody, but to connect places like U.S-China, IAH-MAD, IAH-FRA, and upgrade South America and even explore Middle East and I will agree those places would have huge cargo revenue potential.

No matter how you slice it, Europe is seasonal, look at how everyone cuts back on flying in the winter and Delta does more than others, their TXL is about 4x a week because their inability to downgrade to smaller equipment up to this point, their risk on operating the B767 in cold winter Europe is simply higher, rather than making it work with B757s. Try running a B767 to Scotland in the winter. Delta has out of ATL and they are not coming back. Instead they will send a B757 from JFK. Continental has proven success in the market and Delta wants a piece. There you go.

Also, passenger revenue is *not* just icing on the cake, it's the coach section that's icing on the cake. Places that deserve widebody are places where it can be filled with premium revenue in BusinessFirst, and I'd bet TXL, HAM, CGN are not at the top of the list. To sum it up, although a stretch, the B757s do have a place in the European market from the U.S.

 

[zonker]

.....

 

[Crucianpilot]

How do you know Delta is making money in TXL on year aound basis?? I think you underestimate the huge cost of operating a widebody. You compare the cargo revenue potential of between the two of the most busiest financial capitals of the world with the 2nd tier German cities and argue how HAM, CGN and TXL deserves a widebody. That is apples to orages.

I agree Continental does need more widebody, but to connect places like U.S-China, IAH-MAD, IAH-FRA, and upgrade South America and even explore Middle East and I will agree those places would have huge cargo revenue potential.


No matter how you slice it, Europe is seasonal, look at how everyone cuts back on flying in the winter and Delta does more than others, their TXL is about 4x a week because their inability to downgrade to smaller equipment up to this point, their risk on operating the B767 in cold winter Europe is simply higher, rather than making it work with B757s. Try running a B767 to Scotland in the winter. Delta has out of ATL and they are not coming back. Instead they will send a B757 from JFK. Continental has proven success in the market and Delta wants a piece. There you go.

Also, passenger revenue is *not* just icing on the cake, it's the coach section that's icing on the cake. Places that deserve widebody are places where it can be filled with premium revenue in BusinessFirst, and I'd bet TXL, HAM, CGN are not at the top of the list. To sum it up, although a stretch, the B757s do have a place in the European market from the U.S.

I understand where your coming from; however, when you are regularly flight planning a (nonstop) flight as a one stop flight with a planned fuel stop as we routinely due during the winter because the a/c simply can't make the leg nonstop is not only going to piss off pax, it may eventually cause you to have your route authority pulled by that country because the trip is not being flown nonstop on a regular basis. That is what is happening with our TXL leg. Even when it is not planned, it happens quite often because of winds. Eventually, pax are going to fly someone else.

 

[pianoman]

Unfortunately, even with a fuel stop it's quicker than connecting.

 

[turbinej]

We start flying into Heathrow in March according to Ops people in Gatwick. The did not know exactly what the schedule would be and how much flying would be reduced out of Gatwick. That decision is suppose to be made sometimes this week. This was as Nov 4 when I was in Gatwick. The Captain had asked ops about it.

 

[FLY CONTINENTAL]

I understand we are looking at 777-300's right now.

 

[nimtz]

I understand where your coming from; however, when you are regularly flight planning a (nonstop) flight as a one stop flight with a planned fuel stop as we routinely due during the winter because the a/c simply can't make the leg nonstop is not only going to piss off pax, it may eventually cause you to have your route authority pulled by that country because the trip is not being flown nonstop on a regular basis. That is what is happening with our TXL leg. Even when it is not planned, it happens quite often because of winds. Eventually, pax are going to fly someone else.

Gotta buddy that does business in Berlin all the time. He's been a few where tech stops have happened. He couldn't care less about the resulting delay. All that matters to him is convenience. That's exactly the customer CAL sought to appeal to when they started deeper Europe with the 75.

 

[FlyingSig]

No matter how you slice it, Europe is seasonal, look at how everyone cuts back on flying in the winter and Delta does more than others, their TXL is about 4x a week because their inability to downgrade to smaller equipment up to this point, their risk on operating the B767 in cold winter Europe is simply higher, rather than making it work with B757s. Try running a B767 to Scotland in the winter. Delta has out of ATL and they are not coming back. Instead they will send a B757 from JFK. Continental has proven success in the market and Delta wants a piece. There you go.

The biggest reason for the downgrades to places like TXL (and FRA in a few months as well out of JFK) etc.. is to free up the widebodies for the new expansion. Can't fly the new 75's to Africa (now up to 7 destinations), Tel Aviv, Jordan, and the other places we're going to. We fly our -400's as a seperate category so in NY the new routes are getting ER's while in ATL many of the -400's are getting converted to int'l seating.

 

[Ex737Driver]

I understand we are looking at 777-300's right now.

CAL said in a round about way they will be using at least 1 767-400. The DNU reported that the HNL-NGO route was going to be suspended in March of 2008, which uses a 767-400. The report said that the aircraft would be redeployed to support trans-Atlantic markets.

I would suppose that the flight from EWR would be done with a simple suffling of 757, 767, or 777 aircraft.

The big question that remains now is how will CAL provide lift for the Shanghi route if the 787 is delayed?

 

[RJAA]

CAL said in a round about way they will be using at least 1 767-400. The DNU reported that the HNL-NGO route was going to be suspended in March of 2008, which uses a 767-400. The report said that the aircraft would be redeployed to support trans-Atlantic markets.

I would suppose that the flight from EWR would be done with a simple suffling of 757, 767, or 777 aircraft.

The big question that remains now is how will CAL provide lift for the Shanghi route if the 787 is delayed?

It is delayed and Continental will have zero B787s in March 2009 when PVG is expected to begin. This is where CO will run into a problem. Unless they do something, they will have to downgrade places like CDG to squeeze 2 additional B777 to be used in PVG.