CAL Fleet Plans?

[BID]

According to airlinepilotcentral.com CAL is due to receive 6 737-800s in 2007, 14 737-800s in 2008, 14 737-800s in 2009. 2 777's in 2007, & 2-3 787 in 2009.

Is this accurate? Can anyone in the "know" expand on whether this is growth aircraft or replacement for the 300 and 500 series. Do you know where I can find a financial release, etc. about these orders?

thanks for the info.

 

[acbarney]

http://www.continental.com/company/investor/docs/continental_ar_2005.pdf

Page 46.

Go to the source.

the 4 757-300's on firm order have all been delivered this year, strong rumours of 4 more coming later this year.

6 of the 737-800's are being delivered this year. I'm not sure how many have come yet.

Replacement or expansion? your guess is as good as anyone's regarding the 737's. I think they will get rid of some of the -500's as they come off lease.

the 787's and 777's are for expansion.

 

[HalinTexas]

http://www.continental.com/company/investor/docs/continental_ar_2005.pdf

Page 46.

Go to the source.

the 4 757-300's on firm order have all been delivered this year, strong rumours of 4 more coming later this year.

6 of the 737-800's are being delivered this year. I'm not sure how many have come yet.

Replacement or expansion? your guess is as good as anyone's regarding the 737's. I think they will get rid of some of the -500's as they come off lease.

the 787's and 777's are for expansion.

I've heard from a reasonably reliable source that CAL is still very interested in ATA's B75's. We still have 5 -300's left.

 

[bearcat]

I think that we are trying to get our hands on every single one that is available. If ATA is going to get rid of them, then CAL should be first in line to get them.

 

[PowerRanger]

the 4 757-300's on firm order have all been delivered this year, strong rumours of 4 more coming later this year.

Wrongo...CAL had more 757-300's on order but converted them to 737-800's. Also the 757 line was closed in like 03 or 04. So I doubt that CAL is getting new 757-300's unless they are second had from another airline!

 

[Citrus531]

Yeah i believe the last 757 came off last year...to Shanghai Airlines 1050 frame built...

Ashame only 50 757-300's were built...i guess they got into the game too late?!?

 

[acbarney]

Wrongo...CAL had more 757-300's on order but converted them to 737-800's. Also the 757 line was closed in like 03 or 04. So I doubt that CAL is getting new 757-300's unless they are second had from another airline!

The 4 we got this year, and the 4 we got last year came form Boeing after ATA returned them to Boeing. The 4 more we are hearing about are also ex-ATA aircraft.

Hal, you say ATA still has 5 -300's? I am furloughed ATA but don't get anymore info from the ATA mec or company since I came to CAL a year ago.

 

[Ex737Driver]

CAL Fleet Plans

Is this accurate? Can anyone in the "know" expand on whether this is growth aircraft or replacement for the 300 and 500 series. Do you know where I can find a financial release, etc. about these orders?

Yes, this is acurate. As all plans though, they are subject to change. This information was presented to the EWR LEC at the airport Marriott by Larry Kellner himself earlier this month.

 

[HalinTexas]

The 4 we got this year, and the 4 we got last year came form Boeing after ATA returned them to Boeing. The 4 more we are hearing about are also ex-ATA aircraft.

Hal, you say ATA still has 5 -300's? I am furloughed ATA but don't get anymore info from the ATA mec or company since I came to CAL a year ago.

I found out that we have 4 -300's and 6 -200's. I've been told that CAL wants the -200's as well. I don't think we can afford to get rid of the -200's. We need them for PHX and LAS to HI flights. The 737's won't work.

 

[HalinTexas]

If ATA, by some miracle, gets some B767-300's in any significant number, at a price we can afford, then those B757-300's will be gone.

 

[acbarney]

The rumour I heard was what I was told during my MV/LOE last month by the Checkairman, who specifically said we are planning on getting the last 4 ATA 757-300's in December this year.

As always, I'll believe it when I see it, but that is a little more convincing than just guys talking S*** in the cockpit.

 

[Plug]

The 737 fleet manager at CAL told my class some insane numbers. 7 more 737-800's this year, 30+ next year, 30+ in '08, and 50 in '09. I don't know if he mis-spoke as that seems mighty high. I also heard elsewhere that we got some delivery slots from AA. Any truth to this and how many?

Neal, you still feeling like pooh from the gathering at the pool tues. night? ;-)

Cheers

 

[EMBpilot]

The 737 fleet manager at CAL told my class some insane numbers. 7 more 737-800's this year, 30+ next year, 30+ in '08, and 50 in '09. I don't know if he mis-spoke as that seems mighty high. I also heard elsewhere that we got some delivery slots from AA. Any truth to this and how many?

Neal, you still feeling like pooh from the gathering at the pool tues. night? ;-)

Cheers

It's a strategy to place enough orders before the merger.

 

[Tomct]

Hope CAL does not merge with anyone!! It would most likely be bad for ANY newhires!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Hope CAL does not merge with anyone!! It would most likely be bad for ANY newhires!

For argument's sake, why?

 

[pkober]

Why?

I was at TWA for 7 years and got stuck to the bottom and then furloughed. As a new hire you have no protection, especially not from ALPA.

At least I'm at a better place now than AA.

CLAMBAKE

For argument's sake, why?

 

[EMBpilot]

ALPA + ALPA should be better.

If you combine sen. lists it shows me at 48% of total at CAL in 10 years without merger.
At UAL+CAL at 72% ... Oh well, I'll survive

If it will be considered good for the business the merger will take place. Our opinion, I am afraid, will not bother any one.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Why?

I was at TWA for 7 years and got stuck to the bottom and then furloughed. As a new hire you have no protection, especially not from ALPA.

At least I'm at a better place now than AA.

CLAMBAKE

This is always a heated issue but here goes anyway...The TWA/AA deal was not a merger of two viable companies - it was an acquisition by a relatively healthy company (AA) of an "about to be Chapter 7" company (TWA). The staple job occurred because Carty required it as a condition of acquisition. Big difference from what would happen if CAL merged with someone (say UAL for argument's sake). Career expectations would be taken into account under ALPA merger policy and it would not be the staple job that you saw at AA/TWA.

-Neal

 

[Formula1]

This is always a heated issue but here goes anyway...The TWA/AA deal was not a merger of two viable companies - it was an acquisition by a relatively healthy company (AA) of an "about to be Chapter 7" company (TWA). The staple job occurred because Carty required it as a condition of acquisition. Big difference from what would happen if CAL merged with someone (say UAL for argument's sake). Career expectations would be taken into account under ALPA merger policy and it would not be the staple job that you saw at AA/TWA.

And don't forget that after all this happened then 9/11 happened and really made a mess of things.

 

[aa73]

This is always a heated issue but here goes anyway...The TWA/AA deal was not a merger of two viable companies - it was an acquisition by a relatively healthy company (AA) of an "about to be Chapter 7" company (TWA). The staple job occurred because Carty required it as a condition of acquisition. Big difference from what would happen if CAL merged with someone (say UAL for argument's sake). Career expectations would be taken into account under ALPA merger policy and it would not be the staple job that you saw at AA/TWA.

-Neal

Duck!

Actually, Neal, Carty did not really have any say in the integration process at all. He left the APA and ALPA to work it out on their own, at which point ALPA decided to bow out of the game (since they were busy trying to recruit AA into their ranks), and the APA pretty much did whatever they wanted.

Carty and the APA did agree that TWA pilots had to waive their rights to third party neutral arbitration as a condition of employment at AA, which is where I believe the TWA pilots got the worst screwing. Neutral arbitration is the only fair way to settle a dispute bewteen two pilot groups when it comes to integrations. The APA did not want to play fair, but the question can be made as to whether they were required to - when a non ALPA airline merges with another airline with a different union, these things happen (and have happened before - reference the SWA acquisition of Morris and where those pilots ended up - all stapled.)

Once that happened, the APA did use their own formula for "career expectations" which resulted in the creation of Supplement CC (STL protected fence for TWA pilots) and the highly controversial staple job of approximately 1100 TWA pilots, with the remaining 1200 feathered in at 8:1.

As far as an ALPA-ALPA merger, as I've said before, the only three outcomes would be DOH, relative seniority or ratio integration - all provided courtesy of your neutral arbitrator. At the very least, when all is said and done, you can only blame the arbitrator, and not the other pilot group.

Have fun at CAL, Neal... I've got a serious case of "grass is greener" right now!

73

 

[FurloughedTwice]

This is always a heated issue but here goes anyway...The TWA/AA deal was not a merger of two viable companies - it was an acquisition by a relatively healthy company (AA) of an "about to be Chapter 7" company (TWA). The staple job occurred because Carty required it as a condition of acquisition. Big difference from what would happen if CAL merged with someone (say UAL for argument's sake). Career expectations would be taken into account under ALPA merger policy and it would not be the staple job that you saw at AA/TWA.

-Neal

Carty had nothing to do with the "staple" he actually said he was going to stay out of it and left it up to APA/ALPA.

As far as TWA going Chapter 7, I really doubt it. Who knows, maybe Boeing and GE were working together to help TWA at the time but stepped aside because of the AA deal? :angryfire (Thanks Compton!!)

What do you think will happed to the US Airways pilots? Combined they make a pretty good airline. Do you think they will be stapled? I doubt it.

Let's hope CAL stands alone. I don't want to go through that again.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Duck!

Actually, Neal, Carty did not really have any say in the integration process at all. He left the APA and ALPA to work it out on their own, at which point ALPA decided to bow out of the game (since they were busy trying to recruit AA into their ranks), and the APA pretty much did whatever they wanted.

Carty and the APA did agree that TWA pilots had to waive their rights to third party neutral arbitration as a condition of employment at AA, which is where I believe the TWA pilots got the worst screwing. Neutral arbitration is the only fair way to settle a dispute bewteen two pilot groups when it comes to integrations. The APA did not want to play fair, but the question can be made as to whether they were required to - when a non ALPA airline merges with another airline with a different union, these things happen (and have happened before - reference the SWA acquisition of Morris and where those pilots ended up - all stapled.)

AA73, the bolded part is mostly what I was referring to but I also know, from discussions with investment bankers who were tied to that deal, that Carty said the deal would never go through without waiver of seniority rights (because, right or wrong, he knew how ugly it would get).

As far as an ALPA-ALPA merger, as I've said before, the only three outcomes would be DOH, relative seniority or ratio integration - all provided courtesy of your neutral arbitrator. At the very least, when all is said and done, you can only blame the arbitrator, and not the other pilot group.

Well there are far more than 3 outcomes because you can do various combinations of integrating the list. That said, you are correct that an arbitrator will most likely be the final determinant in a seniority merger and another absolute is that there will only be 1 happy pilot on that new list...everyone else will feel like they got scr-wed.

Have fun at CAL, Neal... I've got a serious case of "grass is greener" right now!

I hear ya...you certainly don't have an envious place on the seniority list right now. But I would stick it out...once things turn the corner there things will happen fast, just like over at CAL. Good luck!

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Carty had nothing to do with the "staple" he actually said he was going to stay out of it and left it up to APA/ALPA.

As far as TWA going Chapter 7, I really doubt it. Who knows, maybe Boeing and GE were working together to help TWA at the time but stepped aside because of the AA deal? :angryfire (Thanks Compton!!)

From everything I have read and heard (famous last words), Carty would never have gone through with the acquisition without assurances that the seniority issue would be dealt with.

And the bankers that I know were pretty confident that TWA was going to shut its doors within days...which is the sole reason why Carty was able to get TWA for the firesale price that he did.

What do you think will happed to the US Airways pilots? Combined they make a pretty good airline. Do you think they will be stapled? I doubt it.

Let's hope CAL stands alone. I don't want to go through that again.

From everything I have been told, the discussions between the AAA and AWA guys have been going well. It will be interesting to see what ultimately pans out though. But no, there won't be a staple...but then again, the TWA/AA case is worlds different from the AAA/AWA case.

And I agree with you on the last comment...I hope for all of our sakes we continue to operate on our own as I think we have a pretty good thing here.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I just found this link to an AMR SEC filing. Check out the second sentence in the last paragraph on page 9 of the PDF file (which is page 7 in the filing).

http://www.shareholder.com/Common/Edgar/4515/950134-01-2482/01-00.pdf

 

[captainjack]

From everything I have been told, the discussions between the AAA and AWA guys have been going well. It will be interesting to see what ultimately pans out though. But no, there won't be a staple...but then again, the TWA/AA case is worlds different from the AAA/AWA case.
-Neal

Really?

The two merger committees haven't met in some time. They were supposed to meet next week but the meeting was cancelled as no progress was being made on any front. The two sides have certified their seniority lists and that's about it. From what I understand, both sides are protesting each others lists and it will be part of the mediation/arbitration.

Mediation starts in October and Nicolau will probably hear the arbitration in December/January with a March 07 decision.

You can never predict how an arbitrator will rule. You may think you have a slam dunk case and then you get slammed.

Time will tell.

I wouldn't want to be at the bottom of CAL's list (or any airline) in a merger.

 

[Palomino]

I wouldn't want to be at the bottom of CAL's list (or any airline) in a merger.

duh?

a dude's gotta start somewhere though. i'll take my chances.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Really?

The two merger committees haven't met in some time. They were supposed to meet next week but the meeting was cancelled as no progress was being made on any front. The two sides have certified their seniority lists and that's about it. From what I understand, both sides are protesting each others lists and it will be part of the mediation/arbitration.

Mediation starts in October and Nicolau will probably hear the arbitration in December/January with a March 07 decision.

You can never predict how an arbitrator will rule. You may think you have a slam dunk case and then you get slammed.

Time will tell.

I wouldn't want to be at the bottom of CAL's list (or any airline) in a merger.

Well like I said, I had heard it was going well...perhaps they hit a brick wall. I don't think anyone ever pretended that it wouldn't go to an arbitrator. But I was told the MEC's were making progress both on the contract front as well as seniority list front. That was a few months ago though so my info is a bit old, but it did come from someone at National involved with the case.

And on your last comment, everyone has to start somewhere...I'll take my chances with CAL for the time being. Some things are just beyond a line pilot's control....

-Neal

 

[Plug]

The discussion is interesting but back to the purpose of this thread is the CAL fleet plan. So on that note......

7 more 737-800's this year
a handful in 07'
30 737-800 or 900ER's in 08'
30 737-800 or 900ER's in 09'
4 787's in 09'
Didn't here anything about the 757-300's or the retirement of the 737-300's.

Cheers

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The discussion is interesting but back to the purpose of this thread is the CAL fleet plan. So on that note......

7 more 737-800's this year
a handful in 07'
30 737-800 or 900ER's in 08'
30 737-800 or 900ER's in 09'
4 787's in 09'
Didn't here anything about the 757-300's or the retirement of the 737-300's.

Cheers

Plug, I believe it is 6 737-800's this year. This is from page 17 of the CAL 2005 10K. I hope I'm wrong and you are right though!

-Neal

 

[geshields]

Read the e-mail you all just got....with our fleet plan in it...

I won't post here because I have no idea if that was confidential or not...