CAL DEN and ORD bases???

[list2002]

"They treat us badly because we let them treat us badly"

 

[Andy]

Oh boy...is this crap for real?

Yes. He had 25 flying hours + 12 deadhead hours. His 5 days of reserve turned into 6 when they moved his Reserve day off to a later date. After his last flight, he was assigned another flight to ferry an aircraft ... that was when he replied that he was fatigued and did not accept the assignment. If I were exhausted, I would have also stated that I was fatigued and not accepted the assignment.
I expect to be 'hired' at CAL in the next batch of UAL furloughees and will probably be on the line this summer. I'll fly what I can but I'm too old/tired/worn out to push it beyond certain limits. Unfortunately, those limits are less than they were when I was in my 20s/30s/40s.

 

[densoo]

Oh boy...is this crap for real?

Three UAL new hires already quit CAL. That might tell you something as well. The treatment starts before you even get here--UAL pilots are already talking about how to get the CBTs done before they get to training because their predecessors are telling them what a firehose it is. Although there is time allotted in training for CBTs, the schedule is so packed that if you walk in without them done you'll feel behind from day one. It is designed this way, to work on your days off without pay.

 

[ATRCA]

Three UAL new hires already quit CAL. That might tell you something as well. The treatment starts before you even get here--UAL pilots are already talking about how to get the CBTs done before they get to training because their predecessors are telling them what a firehose it is. Although there is time allotted in training for CBTs, the schedule is so packed that if you walk in without them done you'll feel behind from day one. It is designed this way, to work on your days off without pay.

Well, I've done two training cycles at CAL (73,756) and never once did I do a single CBT prior to my first day in class. I don't like them but the idea that they cannot be completed is a bit absurd. I think CBT's blow but they're not that hard to get through. I really don't care if UAL guys quit. There'll be thousands of applicants to he hired off the street if enough UAL guys bypass. The company want's bodies.....they'll get bodies. UAL furloughees or not. I personally think training at CAL is some of the easiest I've ever done.

The fact of the matter is that the contract blows. If UAL guys don't think they can work under the agreement, than they should stay on furlough. If UAL guys are given a legal assignment and they refuse it, they'll answer to someone for it. If they do it enough times, I suspect they'll find themselves back on furlough. Either way, I don't care. I don't blame them either. Everyone makes choices and I wish them all the best but I hardly think the company is concerned.

There will be qualified applicants lining up for jobs at L-CAL this summer. Unfortunately, the company knows this all to well.

 

[ATRCA]

Yes. He had 25 flying hours + 12 deadhead hours. His 5 days of reserve turned into 6 when they moved his Reserve day off to a later date. After his last flight, he was assigned another flight to ferry an aircraft ... that was when he replied that he was fatigued and did not accept the assignment. If I were exhausted, I would have also stated that I was fatigued and not accepted the assignment.
I expect to be 'hired' at CAL in the next batch of UAL furloughees and will probably be on the line this summer. I'll fly what I can but I'm too old/tired/worn out to push it beyond certain limits. Unfortunately, those limits are less than they were when I was in my 20s/30s/40s.

Sounds like the 73.....

I'm not on that aircraft. This month I flew 46 hrs on reserve. I've never been double pumped on reserve and only once did I have a single day rolled. I wasn't used and was on the 1600 flight home. I just completed 4 days on reserve without an assignment. 73 guys my seniority are getting pummeled.

73 reserve is pretty awful. If I were a UAL guy considering a position at CAL...Id only do it on the 756.

 

[densoo]

Well, I've done two training cycles at CAL (73,756) and never once did I do a single CBT prior to my first day in class. I don't like them but the idea that they cannot be completed is a bit absurd. I think CBT's blow but they're not that hard to get through.

I had the same experience generally. When you get them done before training even starts it gives you more time during training to focus on the next FTD or sim event.

The problem is that when most folks get them done before training and consequently have more time to better prepare for the next FTD or Sim, then this better performance becomes the expectation rather than the norm and anyone who doesn't do them before training starts is now seen as underperforming, just because they're going through the program as designed.

Additionally, the folks who build the training syllabus see the general overperformance of the pre-prepared pilots and figure the syllabus is too easy and shorten it to save money. Now the guy who doesn't do all the CBTs before training is hosed because the shortened syllabus falsely assumes it can all be done after training starts when it can't.

 

[eaglesview]

The fact of the matter is that the contract blows. If UAL guys don't think they can work under the agreement, than they should stay on furlough. If UAL guys are given a legal assignment and they refuse it, they'll answer to someone for it. If they do it enough times, I suspect they'll find themselves back on furlough. Either way, I don't care. I don't blame them either. Everyone makes choices and I wish them all the best but I hardly think the company is concerned.

There will be qualified applicants lining up for jobs at L-CAL this summer. Unfortunately, the company knows this all to well.

Just because an assignment is legal does not mean it is safe. Refusing an assignment for fatigue is absolutly the right thing to do if your "legal" assignment has not allowed for enough rest.

 

[eaglesview]

I had the same experience generally. Not that big a deal. When you get them done before training even starts it gives you more time during training to focus on the next FTD or sim event.

The problem is that when most folks get them done before training and consequently have more time to better prepare for the next FTD or Sim, then this better performance becomes the expectation rather than the norm and anyone who doesn't do them before training starts is now seen as underperforming, just because they're going through the program as designed.

Unless a pilot is on the clock no advanced training should be done. When will we learn. We are our own worst enemy.

 

[UAL-GSO]

Sounds like the 73.....

73 reserve is pretty awful. If I were a UAL guy considering a position at CAL...Id only do it on the 756.

I think the 756 was only an option for the first handful of "new hires" last year. I think it's been all 73 since then. I do recall from ten years ago, however, that wide body/int'l reserve beats domestic hands down.

 

[ATRCA]

Just because an assignment is legal does not mean it is safe. Refusing an assignment for fatigue is absolutly the right thing to do if your "legal" assignment has not allowed for enough rest.

I agree.

 

[ATRCA]

I think the 756 was only an option for the first handful of "new hires" last year. I think it's been all 73 since then. I do recall from ten years ago, however, that wide body/int'l reserve beats domestic hands down.

There are UAL guys coming on line at the moment to the 756. Several actually. Those folks will have a VERY different experience than their classmates on the 73. I suspect we'll see lots of UAL guys able to bid the 756 immediately. It's not terribly uncommon at CAL to have new hires on the 756.

 

[densoo]

Unless a pilot is on the clock no advanced training should be done. When will we learn. We are our own worst enemy.

I guess that's my point.

 

[UAL-GSO]

There are UAL guys coming on line at the moment to the 756. Several actually. Those folks will have a VERY different experience than their classmates on the 73. I suspect we'll see lots of UAL guys able to bid the 756 immediately. It's not terribly uncommon at CAL to have new hires on the 756.

Good - reminds me of the good days at UAL circa 2000/2001.

 

[ATRCA]

I guess that's my point.

My point as well. I won't look at a single second of those CBT's until day one. I also don't have my manuals sent to my home. I pick them up in the School House when I arrive.

All that being said. Training at CAL is very easy. I can't imagine that any of these guys will struggle so long as the minimum effort is being made.

 

[densoo]

All that being said. Training at CAL is very easy. I can't imagine that any of these guys will struggle so long as the minimum effort is being made.

I didin't find it necessarily easy, but it was well put together and line oriented without a lot of extraneous chaff that one often finds in training programs. My only beef was it was pretty compressed for new-hire initial qual. Training to a different aircraft or upgrade seems to be more evenly paced, but that may be just because one isn't new to the company.