CAL Contract

[flyboy006]

Hey everyone I am not a CAL guy and I see alot of talk about the CAL contract not being too hot. For lack of better knowledge whats up with the contract. Why does it suck?
also on a side note.. i jumpsat on a CAL plane and saw the weirdest thing. There was a CAL jumpseater and 2 non CAL jumpseaters(1 being me) and the flight attendant told the CAL jumpseater the back of the plane was hers and so she needs to seat us where she wants never mind what the boarding card said. I didnt mind I'm hitching a free ride but the CAL guy minded considering it was a half full flight and she put him and us near the bulkhead in a middle seats even though the gate agent gave us individual rows. The CAL jumpseater went to the CAPT who was flying and apparently he told the CAL jumpseater(his fellow peer) to just do what she says!! Guess she was having a bad day!!

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You gotta get off the coffee, or use grammar check, or just put periods every once in a while.

 

[rtseatrich]

Yep sounds like a sterotypical CAL Capt. failing to assert their Captain's Authority. I have seen time and time again at CAL. Letting a F/A run your ship is never ever a good idea. This guy probably let his wife tell him how to vote on the last contract too. Sad but true many CAL pilots lack a backbone. Our current contract is another example. The majority just let the company have everything they wanted and met their timeline too. Hopefully the new hires will change the demographics.

 

[flyboy006]

?

You gotta get off the coffee, or use grammar check, or just put periods every once in a while.

sorry.. will do next time. thanks

 

[zonker]

Had the same deal a few months ago going to ARN. We had a FedEx jumpseater and when the captain asked the ISM (#1 FA) what she thought about putting him in first class (mostly empty), she said, "I don't do that".

He tucked his balls between his legs and said, "okay".

After the door was shut I asked him about it and he gave me some lame story about how his buddy got chastised by the CP for overriding the FA. I looked at him and said, "But...you're the captain."

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Had the same deal a few months ago going to ARN. We had a FedEx jumpseater and when the captain asked the ISM (#1 FA) what she thought about putting him in first class (mostly empty), she said, "I don't do that".

He tucked his balls between his legs and said, "okay".

After the door was shut I asked him about it and he gave me some lame story about how his buddy got chastised by the CP for overriding the FA. I looked at him and said, "But...you're the captain."

That guy is a pu$$y period! When I have a jumpseater if First or Business First is open they get the seat period. I can play nice and attempt to do so in a politically correct manor first, ultimately though either way the political correctness or by excersing Captains Authority the Jumpseater will have a First Class seat! I wish our pilots (captains) would grow some balls it would certainly make my job easier.

Additionally we need to take back our jumpseat during contract 08 and get rid of our current J/S policy and return to one that keeps the J/S away from the gate agents and back with the Captain where it belongs. The current system attempts to circum navigate the Captain. I always go up to the gate area and look for jumpseaters before every flight.

Jayson Baron
EWR B756 CA
CAL SPSC Strike Preparedness Chairman

 

[waveflyer]

That guy is a pu$$y period! When I have a jumpseater if First or Business First is open they get the seat period. I can play nice and attempt to do so in a politically correct manor first, ultimately though either way the political correctness or by excersing Captains Authority the Jumpseater will have a First Class seat! I wish our pilots (captains) would grow some balls it would certainly make my job easier.

Additionally we need to take back our jumpseat during contract 08 and get rid of our current J/S policy and return to one that keeps the J/S away from the gate agents and back with the Captain where it belongs. The current system attempts to circum navigate the Captain. I always go up to the gate area and look for jumpseaters before every flight.

Jayson Baron
EWR B756 CA
CAL SPSC Strike Preparedness Chairman

Well done- thank you for the extra effort-
I will tell you though- continental is just a wierd airline in that regard. Everyone is very nice-and i'm only grateful for the ride- but almost every time i've used them- whereas UAL, AA, DAL all assume youre sitting in 1st if one's available- and unless you're unprofessional or arrogant somehow, the FA's take care of you- at CO-i've been sent back to a full coach middle seat when 1st was open every time-- the first time- it was the captain who sent me back- I heard that employees have to pay to sit in 1st and that may be the reason why they don't like to give it away. I'm just a small sample-and again- very grateful for the ride when i've needed you- but it's nice to hear people like you who are working to take care of our own industry wide.

 

[flyboy006]

Thanks

That guy is a pu$$y period! When I have a jumpseater if First or Business First is open they get the seat period. I can play nice and attempt to do so in a politically correct manor first, ultimately though either way the political correctness or by excersing Captains Authority the Jumpseater will have a First Class seat! I wish our pilots (captains) would grow some balls it would certainly make my job easier.

Additionally we need to take back our jumpseat during contract 08 and get rid of our current J/S policy and return to one that keeps the J/S away from the gate agents and back with the Captain where it belongs. The current system attempts to circum navigate the Captain. I always go up to the gate area and look for jumpseaters before every flight.

Jayson Baron
EWR B756 CA
CAL SPSC Strike Preparedness Chairman

Thank you very much for your hospitality sir. I have used CAL alot to JS and it has been an okay experience. I do agree that the gate plays a huge role in this. At times that made it difficult. I have had a few(2) CAL Captains whos names i will never forget that give a bad name for CAL. Flat out a$$holes to everyone(to multiple jumpseaters). Hopefully the whole thing will be fixed via ur next contract. I am not too sure what is up with the first class thing. I being Non-CAL dont care if i get put in coach even if there are seat in 1st class open but I would hope that a CAL guy JSing would be offered first. As posted above I have been on CAL flights with a CAL jumpseater and he was not offered first and the seat remained empty the entire flight. Whats up with that? Is it a contract thing?

 

[CAL EWR B737]

As posted above I have been on CAL flights with a CAL jumpseater and he was not offered first and the seat remained empty the entire flight. Whats up with that? Is it a contract thing?

No, it is an overall lack of respect towards our pilots and most specifically a degradation of Captain's Authority by many within our company mostly our flight operations management. Simply put out union leadership and our pilots need to fight to reagain much of what has been lost in this arena over recent years.

Our domestic F/C is more times then not is full due to our FF upgrade policy. However if there is an empty seat all of our non revs have had a first shot at it before any Jumpseater. Unfortunately there is some anomosity from our gate agents and others and they will not upgrade non revs unless they pay for First Class. So because some FA's and gate agents couldn't get that occasional empty F/C seat (for free or at coach price if they are less then ten years) when they nonrev they take it out on pilot jumpseaters when there is an open F/C seat out of jealiousy.

Irregardless the Captain should make sure any open First Class seats go to jumpseaters period. So many of our pilots have been taken care of better off line then on our own carrier it is really sad. We need to go the extra mile and make sure our jumpseaters and especially offline jumpseaters get F/C if there is an open seat.

Internationally we do often have Business First (we don't have international first class) seats open. I mostly fly international and if I have a jumpseater and there is a B/F seat they get it period. I went back to row 20 something just before push last month to get our Alaska jumpseater and escort him to a B/F seat.

Addtionally when were negotiating our POS Contract 02 our incompent union leadership (at that time) negotiated the current Jumpseat policy and removed the captain from the equation. We are going to change that and we are going to regain the jumpseat and Captain's Authority in Contact 08.

Sorry for the long reply and I apologize for any typo's. I no longer see a spell checker when I post am I missing something?

Lastly we our slowly changing our pilot groups consistency, we have over 1500 new hires and many of our weaker pilots have retired. I think over time you will find more who share my philosphy then those who are afraid of their own shadow.

Either way we are preparing for WAR with our managment and I am hopeful we will attain a real contract.

To all pilots you are always welcome on my jumpseat and if there is an open F/C seat you will get it.

 

[IAHERJ]

We were flying back from Europe several months ago when a JetBlue jumpseater came up to ask for the jumpseat. The gate agents had already given him his seat assignment(coach) but we had Business First seats open. The captain chatted with him but did not offer him a first class seat. The IRO and myself shook our heads and decided to take care of it ourselves. First, I asked the captain if he thought we should offer the jumpseater a seat up front. He said that it was "not his call". I walked up the jetway and spoke to the agent who said "you guys are the pilots, you can do what you want once he is on the plane". The IRO then asked the ISM(international service manager) if she minded if we envited him up front. She not only thought it was a good idea, she offered him a full menu for meals and made sure he got his 1st choice. He was greatful and we told the Captain in cruise what we had done. His response was "wow, that was nice of you".
It should have been nice of him. It is amazing that we had to go through all that just to do what most other airlines will do automatically for offline guys/girls. Change will come but slowly I believe.

 

[imadumbpilot]

I recall reading, when we went to the automated jumpseat system, that first class upgrades WOULD be given to jumpseaters. This was in one of the union news letters. I will have to look back and see for sure. This crap really peaves me, we were coming out of MXP and had a jumpseater a while back, I asked the Captain if we were allowed to put him in BF, and he said no. It turned out it didn't matter because it was full, but these guys have been so friggin imasculated over the years.

 

[waveflyer]

Well- i again can appreciate the change in culture- Thanks again- and don't worry so much about the jumpseat/FC- I'll go in the overhead if it gets me where i'm going- You're one of the most successful airlines out there and I think have a good product- You get those rates and work rules up- that's what will benefit you and ALL of us the most.

Who can justify being higher paid than CO right now? You all have performed well since 9/11- time to get rewarded for it.

Good luck- whatever support you need - let us all know.

When is your contract due up again?

 

[flyboy006]

good

We were flying back from Europe several months ago when a JetBlue jumpseater came up to ask for the jumpseat. The gate agents had already given him his seat assignment(coach) but we had Business First seats open. The captain chatted with him but did not offer him a first class seat. The IRO and myself shook our heads and decided to take care of it ourselves. First, I asked the captain if he thought we should offer the jumpseater a seat up front. He said that it was "not his call". I walked up the jetway and spoke to the agent who said "you guys are the pilots, you can do what you want once he is on the plane". The IRO then asked the ISM(international service manager) if she minded if we envited him up front. She not only thought it was a good idea, she offered him a full menu for meals and made sure he got his 1st choice. He was greatful and we told the Captain in cruise what we had done. His response was "wow, that was nice of you".
It should have been nice of him. It is amazing that we had to go through all that just to do what most other airlines will do automatically for offline guys/girls. Change will come but slowly I believe.

that awesome of you to go out and do that. we are all in the same boat here no matter what airline we fly for and therefore should take care of eachother. I find it hard to believe that CAPT's at CAL are that spineless.When i am hitching for a free ride i dont really care whether i am in first or not, im just greatfull to be on. Looking back at the many times i jump sat on CAL its true though, that the F/O was the one talking to the FA about if there were any 1st class seats open, or if there were any open rows in coach etc. To my limited memory, i dont recall any of the CAL Captains asking. Dont get me wrong, the CAPTs were all pleasant except for 2 prick CAPT's who i would love to run into in the future, but none really went out of their way to accomodate. It was always the FO.. good for you though!!

 

[BigMeat]

Ive done a similar thing. Our Capts need to wake up and get their authority back!!!!

 

[LUalum]

Got to say, though, I have commuted for years from DFW to ATL and now to EWR. The same practice, sitting J/S riders in coach when first class is open, happens everywhere CO, AA, DL. I don't think it's malicious policy, just that crews don't care anymore and don't make an effort to correct it. Pre 911 in my experience it was the norm to be seated in first if available. If we want this issue, or any other fixed, we need to step up.

 

[flyboy006]

?

Got to say, though, I have commuted for years from DFW to ATL and now to EWR. The same practice, sitting J/S riders in coach when first class is open, happens everywhere CO, AA, DL. I don't think it's malicious policy, just that crews don't care anymore and don't make an effort to correct it. Pre 911 in my experience it was the norm to be seated in first if available. If we want this issue, or any other fixed, we need to step up.

I totally agree with you I am sure the first class option for jumpseaters is pretty equivilent everywhere. I honestly dont care whether I get first or not when I am begging for a ride. What I found weird was that a first class seat that was open would not be offered to that carriers own pilot. I can kinda understand not offering it to another airline jumpseater, but every time on CAL that I jumpsat where there was a CAL jumpseater also and a seat was open in 1st, they never offered it to him or her. The one thing i can say about other carriers like AA, UAL, DAL, the captain there was always the one asking the FA about how it looked in the back and would tell them to take care of me. At CAL, it was always the FO asking the FA about seating situations in the back, like the Capt's were scared of the FA or they didnt care. Thats weird?

 

[atrdriver]

I have been saying since 9/11 that if possible you want a JS rider as close to the cockpit door as possible as extra insurance. Nobody listens, but that's the story of my life...

 

[flygirlqt]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

 

[flyboy006]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

I take it you must have been one of those flight attendants you say "complains about first class
upgrades!" Last I checked the Captain was the Captain, the one in charge. Not to pick on your posting but if the Capt gets away with allowing a FA to tell him how to deal with Jumpseaters, maybe we should go to him/her to see if she likes the current engine shutdown procedure. No one brought up scab in this matter but you and since you have scab or nor scab the Captain is a jumpseaters point of Contact in trying to get home or go to work or whatever. I dont need to walk a mile in their shoes as at one point in my life i was a capt. My point has nothing to really do with first class rather there has been a large number of Captains at CAL during my times of commute that have disrespected their OWN peers jumpseating and have left it up to the FO to deal with the issue and the FO's have stepped up and assumed that role.(How it has been for my jumpseating experience). Most other airlines, the Capt is the one making sure the jumpseater is taken care of. So I understand your point about Capt's being scared of FA's at CAL if thats what u r trying to say but thats pretty sad. Again I could care less where i am put as a jumpseater, but when one of your own comes on board to jumpseat, he wears the same uniform u do, talks the same talk you do, why not take care of him.

 

[zonker]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

It's not like we were born in the right seat ya know. I have thousands of hours in both seats.

Anyone can be a captain. Being a leader is another story.

 

[aa73]

I jumped on CAL last year from BCN-EWR (757) and after I went back to coach and sat down, the #1 came back and put me in the last open Business First seat. I got the full meal service and treatment as well. I thanked them with a nice box of Swiss Lindt chocolate. The flight crew was also very gracious. Thanks guys.

(Of course, had I mentioned that I was friends with Patriot328, things might have been different... :blush: )

73

 

[flygirlqt]

I take it you must have been one of those flight attendants you say "complains about first classupgrades!"

I never was a flight attendant. Did you miss the first line of my post that stated “I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies”?

Last I checked the Captain was the Captain, the one in charge. Not to pick on your posting but if the Capt gets away with allowing a FA to tell him how to deal with Jumpseaters, maybe we should go to him/her to see if she likes the current engine shutdown procedure.

Last time I looked, our Ops. Manual is very specific with written company policy of placing jumpseaters in first class is prohibited unless coach is full.

Last time I checked since I work for this company and am familiar with the nuances and lack of respect shown from management to the Captains especially regarding jumpseat issues and conflict between flight attendants and pilots.

It is exasperated even further that our spinless union barely protects people from bonafide contact violations let alone going against written company policy.

Ops. Manual 5-39 for viewing for CAL folks

No one brought up scab in this matter but you and since you have scab or nor scab the Captain is a jumpseaters point of Contact in trying to get home or go to work or whatever.

Relax, it was only an observation to several posts that made a comment about new blood here when I have seen example of the new blood put their tails between their legs and say nothing.

I found it ironic that with all the complaints about scabs, the only o person I ever saw directly challenge the written policy was in fact a scab.

I don’t need to walk a mile in their shoes as at one point in my life I was a capt. My point has nothing to really do with first class rather there has been a large number of Captains at CAL during my times of commute that have disrespected their OWN peers jumpseating and have left it up to the FO to deal with the issue and the FO's have stepped up and assumed that role.(How it has been for my jumpseating experience).

What you call disrespect is actually adhering to company policy, The company policy specifically states that only f/c seats will be used when coach is full. You are implying that the Captains should violate written policy, the relying on a weak union to back up an clear violation to company policy. Christ, we can’t even get alpa to enforce the contract let alone go to bat for someone intentionally and willfully disregarding policy.

Most other airlines, the Capt is the one making sure the jumpseater is taken care of. So I understand your point about Capt's being scared of FA's at CAL if thats what u r trying to say but thats pretty sad.

Do those same airlines have specific policies written prohibiting and limiting the use of the first class seat? The real issue here is there is not a leg for them to stand on if called on carpet about it. This management team will be taking hostages with the contract coming up.

Again I could care less where I am put as a jumpseater, but when one of your own comes on board to jumpseat, he wears the same uniform u do, talks the same talk you do, why not take care of him.

In a perfect world that is correct. But when you are trying to buck company policy, just how far out on a limb do you want these Captains to go?

 

[flygirlqt]

It's not like we were born in the right seat ya know. I have thousands of hours in both seats.

Anyone can be a captain. Being a leader is another story.

I am not disagreeing with any of this. I am only trying to point out that it is written policy about the first class seats.

To chastise some of our Captains for not wanting to fight management over a written policy that is going to be a lose lose proposition from the start is not entirely fair.

Remember the FCO Business first debacle? Christ, that was contractual and look what happened.

 

[zonker]

"With the elevated terrorist threat and in the interest of safety, the ACM will be in the First Class Cabin in order to protect the cockpit from any potential threats."

It's that simple.

 

[flygirlqt]

"With the elevated terrorist threat and in the interest of safety, the ACM will be in the First Class Cabin in order to protect the cockpit from any potential threats."

It's that simple.

Not really...especially going into a grievance hearing.

I am not disagreeing either, just offering a different perspective since there is a black and white policy regarding first class seats for jumpseaters.

 

[zonker]

There's also a black and white policy in regards to safety and captain's authority.

 

[flygirlqt]

There's also a black and white policy in regards to safety and captain's authority.

Good luck with using that one around here for this particular jumpseat issue. I can already hear their response:

"The bulkhead row in coach will accomplish the same thing".

What did the FCO Captain get ...like 30 days off when it was written into the contract about the First Class seat?

Imagine what is going to happen to somebody they decide to make an example out of that for something not even part of a contractual issue and in direct violation of company policy.

I am not disagreeing in principle but there is another side to this subject that needs to be taken into account.

 

[zonker]

Well, I'd give it a shot but backstabbing Prater and his pals put that one off for a while.

 

[flyboy006]

I am not disagreeing with any of this. I am only trying to point out that it is written policy about the first class seats.

To chastise some of our Captains for not wanting to fight management over a written policy that is going to be a lose lose proposition from the start is not entirely fair.

Remember the FCO Business first debacle? Christ, that was contractual and look what happened.

I am not trying to argue with you if thats CAL's written policy thats the policy. I am not a CAL guy. In my opinion thats a dumb policy but I am sure there is reason for it I guess. To me and this is just me.. it would be one thing not to let other airline Jumpseaters in first class. Thats acceptable. I dont understand why you company policy would prohibit you from allowing one of your own to sit there considering the seat will go unfilled anyways once the door is closed and the seat is empty. I am not too sure what the nuts and bolts are in regards to your contract and I hear a lot of grief about your current contract, hopefully your next one will be a lot better and petty stuff like jumpseating and giving capt's the authority they deserve are given back. I know there are a lot of Capt's there that go out on a limb as you say to take care of their jumpseaters as i hope they would be taken care of, and to them Thanks!

 

[flygirlqt]

I am not trying to argue with you if thats CAL's written policy thats the policy. I am not a CAL guy. In my opinion thats a dumb policy but I am sure there is reason for it I guess. To me and this is just me.. it would be one thing not to let other airline Jumpseaters in first class. Thats acceptable. I dont understand why you company policy would prohibit you from allowing one of your own to sit there considering the seat will go unfilled anyways once the door is closed and the seat is empty. I am not too sure what the nuts and bolts are in regards to your contract and I hear a lot of grief about your current contract, hopefully your next one will be a lot better and petty stuff like jumpseating and giving capt's the authority they deserve are given back. I know there are a lot of Capt's there that go out on a limb as you say to take care of their jumpseaters as i hope they would be taken care of, and to them Thanks!

I agree it is a lousy, punitive and disrespectful policy. It is a policy that management has which essentially caters to the complaints of all non jumpseat qualified personnel and the flight attendants. You can rest assured the flight attendants upgrade their own all the time.

Until ALPA grows a set and starts acting like a real union versus a country club and cash bonanza for a select group of individuals..nothing will change.