CAL Contract

[flyboy006]

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Got to say, though, I have commuted for years from DFW to ATL and now to EWR. The same practice, sitting J/S riders in coach when first class is open, happens everywhere CO, AA, DL. I don't think it's malicious policy, just that crews don't care anymore and don't make an effort to correct it. Pre 911 in my experience it was the norm to be seated in first if available. If we want this issue, or any other fixed, we need to step up.

I totally agree with you I am sure the first class option for jumpseaters is pretty equivilent everywhere. I honestly dont care whether I get first or not when I am begging for a ride. What I found weird was that a first class seat that was open would not be offered to that carriers own pilot. I can kinda understand not offering it to another airline jumpseater, but every time on CAL that I jumpsat where there was a CAL jumpseater also and a seat was open in 1st, they never offered it to him or her. The one thing i can say about other carriers like AA, UAL, DAL, the captain there was always the one asking the FA about how it looked in the back and would tell them to take care of me. At CAL, it was always the FO asking the FA about seating situations in the back, like the Capt's were scared of the FA or they didnt care. Thats weird?

 

[atrdriver]

I have been saying since 9/11 that if possible you want a JS rider as close to the cockpit door as possible as extra insurance. Nobody listens, but that's the story of my life...

 

[flygirlqt]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

 

[flyboy006]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

I take it you must have been one of those flight attendants you say "complains about first class
upgrades!" Last I checked the Captain was the Captain, the one in charge. Not to pick on your posting but if the Capt gets away with allowing a FA to tell him how to deal with Jumpseaters, maybe we should go to him/her to see if she likes the current engine shutdown procedure. No one brought up scab in this matter but you and since you have scab or nor scab the Captain is a jumpseaters point of Contact in trying to get home or go to work or whatever. I dont need to walk a mile in their shoes as at one point in my life i was a capt. My point has nothing to really do with first class rather there has been a large number of Captains at CAL during my times of commute that have disrespected their OWN peers jumpseating and have left it up to the FO to deal with the issue and the FO's have stepped up and assumed that role.(How it has been for my jumpseating experience). Most other airlines, the Capt is the one making sure the jumpseater is taken care of. So I understand your point about Capt's being scared of FA's at CAL if thats what u r trying to say but thats pretty sad. Again I could care less where i am put as a jumpseater, but when one of your own comes on board to jumpseat, he wears the same uniform u do, talks the same talk you do, why not take care of him.

 

[zonker]

I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies, but it is easy to talk big about what the Captain should or should not do. Ultimately he/she is the one that will get called in on the carpet when the flight attendants complain about first class upgrades..and complain they will. The flight attendants have been empowered for so long, flt ops management puts their tails between their legs whenever their is a real issue between the two groups.

Given the lack of true union leadership here as management continues to beat down the pilots in preparation for the contract, walk a mile in the Captain shoes before you start belittling them for a perceived lack of action. Especially over an issue that is non contractual.

btw...the only Captain I ever saw demand a JS'r get put in first class was in fact a scab.

It's not like we were born in the right seat ya know. I have thousands of hours in both seats.

Anyone can be a captain. Being a leader is another story.

 

[aa73]

I jumped on CAL last year from BCN-EWR (757) and after I went back to coach and sat down, the #1 came back and put me in the last open Business First seat. I got the full meal service and treatment as well. I thanked them with a nice box of Swiss Lindt chocolate. The flight crew was also very gracious. Thanks guys.

(Of course, had I mentioned that I was friends with Patriot328, things might have been different... :blush: )

73

 

[flygirlqt]

I take it you must have been one of those flight attendants you say "complains about first classupgrades!"

I never was a flight attendant. Did you miss the first line of my post that stated “I am not defending the abysmal non rev/js policies”?

Last I checked the Captain was the Captain, the one in charge. Not to pick on your posting but if the Capt gets away with allowing a FA to tell him how to deal with Jumpseaters, maybe we should go to him/her to see if she likes the current engine shutdown procedure.

Last time I looked, our Ops. Manual is very specific with written company policy of placing jumpseaters in first class is prohibited unless coach is full.

Last time I checked since I work for this company and am familiar with the nuances and lack of respect shown from management to the Captains especially regarding jumpseat issues and conflict between flight attendants and pilots.

It is exasperated even further that our spinless union barely protects people from bonafide contact violations let alone going against written company policy.

Ops. Manual 5-39 for viewing for CAL folks

No one brought up scab in this matter but you and since you have scab or nor scab the Captain is a jumpseaters point of Contact in trying to get home or go to work or whatever.

Relax, it was only an observation to several posts that made a comment about new blood here when I have seen example of the new blood put their tails between their legs and say nothing.

I found it ironic that with all the complaints about scabs, the only o person I ever saw directly challenge the written policy was in fact a scab.

I don’t need to walk a mile in their shoes as at one point in my life I was a capt. My point has nothing to really do with first class rather there has been a large number of Captains at CAL during my times of commute that have disrespected their OWN peers jumpseating and have left it up to the FO to deal with the issue and the FO's have stepped up and assumed that role.(How it has been for my jumpseating experience).

What you call disrespect is actually adhering to company policy, The company policy specifically states that only f/c seats will be used when coach is full. You are implying that the Captains should violate written policy, the relying on a weak union to back up an clear violation to company policy. Christ, we can’t even get alpa to enforce the contract let alone go to bat for someone intentionally and willfully disregarding policy.

Most other airlines, the Capt is the one making sure the jumpseater is taken care of. So I understand your point about Capt's being scared of FA's at CAL if thats what u r trying to say but thats pretty sad.

Do those same airlines have specific policies written prohibiting and limiting the use of the first class seat? The real issue here is there is not a leg for them to stand on if called on carpet about it. This management team will be taking hostages with the contract coming up.

Again I could care less where I am put as a jumpseater, but when one of your own comes on board to jumpseat, he wears the same uniform u do, talks the same talk you do, why not take care of him.

In a perfect world that is correct. But when you are trying to buck company policy, just how far out on a limb do you want these Captains to go?

 

[flygirlqt]

It's not like we were born in the right seat ya know. I have thousands of hours in both seats.

Anyone can be a captain. Being a leader is another story.

I am not disagreeing with any of this. I am only trying to point out that it is written policy about the first class seats.

To chastise some of our Captains for not wanting to fight management over a written policy that is going to be a lose lose proposition from the start is not entirely fair.

Remember the FCO Business first debacle? Christ, that was contractual and look what happened.

 

[zonker]

"With the elevated terrorist threat and in the interest of safety, the ACM will be in the First Class Cabin in order to protect the cockpit from any potential threats."

It's that simple.

 

[flygirlqt]

"With the elevated terrorist threat and in the interest of safety, the ACM will be in the First Class Cabin in order to protect the cockpit from any potential threats."

It's that simple.

Not really...especially going into a grievance hearing.

I am not disagreeing either, just offering a different perspective since there is a black and white policy regarding first class seats for jumpseaters.

 

[zonker]

There's also a black and white policy in regards to safety and captain's authority.

 

[flygirlqt]

There's also a black and white policy in regards to safety and captain's authority.

Good luck with using that one around here for this particular jumpseat issue. I can already hear their response:

"The bulkhead row in coach will accomplish the same thing".

What did the FCO Captain get ...like 30 days off when it was written into the contract about the First Class seat?

Imagine what is going to happen to somebody they decide to make an example out of that for something not even part of a contractual issue and in direct violation of company policy.

I am not disagreeing in principle but there is another side to this subject that needs to be taken into account.

 

[zonker]

Well, I'd give it a shot but backstabbing Prater and his pals put that one off for a while.

 

[flyboy006]

I am not disagreeing with any of this. I am only trying to point out that it is written policy about the first class seats.

To chastise some of our Captains for not wanting to fight management over a written policy that is going to be a lose lose proposition from the start is not entirely fair.

Remember the FCO Business first debacle? Christ, that was contractual and look what happened.

I am not trying to argue with you if thats CAL's written policy thats the policy. I am not a CAL guy. In my opinion thats a dumb policy but I am sure there is reason for it I guess. To me and this is just me.. it would be one thing not to let other airline Jumpseaters in first class. Thats acceptable. I dont understand why you company policy would prohibit you from allowing one of your own to sit there considering the seat will go unfilled anyways once the door is closed and the seat is empty. I am not too sure what the nuts and bolts are in regards to your contract and I hear a lot of grief about your current contract, hopefully your next one will be a lot better and petty stuff like jumpseating and giving capt's the authority they deserve are given back. I know there are a lot of Capt's there that go out on a limb as you say to take care of their jumpseaters as i hope they would be taken care of, and to them Thanks!

 

[flygirlqt]

I am not trying to argue with you if thats CAL's written policy thats the policy. I am not a CAL guy. In my opinion thats a dumb policy but I am sure there is reason for it I guess. To me and this is just me.. it would be one thing not to let other airline Jumpseaters in first class. Thats acceptable. I dont understand why you company policy would prohibit you from allowing one of your own to sit there considering the seat will go unfilled anyways once the door is closed and the seat is empty. I am not too sure what the nuts and bolts are in regards to your contract and I hear a lot of grief about your current contract, hopefully your next one will be a lot better and petty stuff like jumpseating and giving capt's the authority they deserve are given back. I know there are a lot of Capt's there that go out on a limb as you say to take care of their jumpseaters as i hope they would be taken care of, and to them Thanks!

I agree it is a lousy, punitive and disrespectful policy. It is a policy that management has which essentially caters to the complaints of all non jumpseat qualified personnel and the flight attendants. You can rest assured the flight attendants upgrade their own all the time.

Until ALPA grows a set and starts acting like a real union versus a country club and cash bonanza for a select group of individuals..nothing will change.