CAL ALPA: UAL's Contract Dissenting opinion is out!

[Yuppyguppy]

This place and this career SUCK!

 

[eaglesview]

Thanks yuppy and Garth. Like Garth says fact is CO has nothing to lose UA does. Longer this takes more CO pilots upgrade ect ect ect. Think they will have our backs when UCH starts to shift flying. Beem through this circus with EAL. I'll be voting yes.

Up yours Continental

 

[Continental]

Tough talk on the forum I've had enough. Good luck to all.

You will reap what you sow! You have been warned

 

[Continental]

This place and this career SUCK!

I will agree with you on that. however we have the power to change it. right now!

 

[Flopgut]

I don't want a seat grab and seniority at anyone's expense. I want an industry leading contract with iron clad scope and full 100% retro. I want iron clad language. I want more days at home not less.

You have no idea what your walking into.

These guys don't get it. Yuppy wants to fast forward to a SLI fight... Meanwhile the contract is so bad, it's not going to matter at all who ends up senior!! You're right, they have NO idea what they are walking into!

 

[eaglesview]

This place and this career SUCK!

Have faith, We'll get the contract and stick it to them and there itty bitty widebody fleet with the SLI.

 

[Flopgut]

Beem through this circus with EAL. I'll be voting yes.

Up yours Continental

Ok for you to keep blurting out "Eastern", but you can't acknowledge that what your airline did to Frontier was just as bad (or worse). And Lorenzo wasn't in on that. That was pure UAL pilot greed and arrogance.

 

[Continental]

These guys don't get it. Yuppy wants to fast forward to a SLI fight... Meanwhile the contract is so bad, it's not going to matter at all who ends up senior!! You're right, they have NO idea what they are walking into!

MGT has forever burned "next 30 years" its bridge with me for numerous reasons/contract violations/reassignment/rolling days/ PBS the list goes on. I wil never do a favor for them ever.
A continuous failure in every aspect. I honestly could give a sheet about the SLI or seniority. It falls where the arbitrator decides. I have no influence on it. I never imagined my previous job would be 10 fold better than my "Major Airline Career".

I'm so pO at our own union for allowing such a weak contract to get voted in.

 

[Flopgut]

Have faith, We'll get the contract and stick it to them and there itty bitty widebody fleet with the SLI.

Yeah Yuppy, have faith in this guy. He's done such a great job so far, right? Your last 12 years have been great standing shoulder to shoulder with him.

 

[Continental]

These are all great ideas on here but none of them deal with the reality of millions of dollars worth of contracts that UAL has with it's feeders. I only see a feeeze of the current level of 70 seaters.

How's that looking for you now with the new T/A? It's ok because it's all about you right?

 

[eaglesview]

deleted

 

[eaglesview]

How's that looking for you now with the new T/A? It's ok because it's all about you right?

I like it better.

 

[Flopgut]

Have faith, We'll get the contract and stick it to them and there itty bitty widebody fleet with the SLI.

To further clarify: Having ZERO faith in you is a right that hundreds of pilots have bought and paid for, hundreds of times over. You are a JOKE!

 

[eaglesview]

I could not possibly care less what you think of me. You idiots would love to delay things it just means more upgrades out of seniority on your side and the continued erosion of flying on our side which would suit your "no morals" side just fine. We will get this passed with our larger numbers and then take control of the union and get rid of that idiot JP.

 

[Flopgut]

I could not possibly care less what you think of me. You idiots would love to delay things it just means more upgrades out of seniority on your side and the continued erosion of flying on our side which would suit your "no morals" side just fine. We will get this passed with our larger numbers and then take control of the union and get rid of that idiot JP.

Then, you will sign a side letter that sells out scope (for, well, anything that helps you only) and furlough all these pilots you pretend to have some regard for. We've seen this before. You can't be trusted.

 

[Continental]

I could not possibly care less what you think of me. You idiots would love to delay things it just means more upgrades out of seniority on your side and the continued erosion of flying on our side which would suit your "no morals" side just fine. We will get this passed with our larger numbers and then take control of the union and get rid of that idiot JP.

Your omiphobia will be your downfall. I'm glad i am not myopic unlike yourself

Fine do that and you will still be left with a subpar contract with holes like Swiss cheese that allows mgt to do whatever they want

I feel sorry for your family. What's it like living life as a coward?

 

[nimtz]

I could not possibly care less what you think of me. You idiots would love to delay things it just means more upgrades out of seniority on your side and the continued erosion of flying on our side which would suit your "no morals" side just fine. We will get this passed with our larger numbers and then take control of the union and get rid of that idiot JP.

What you fail to realize is that after we get the ISL and throw JP out, we are shackled to a contract that continues to give management the upper hand. It will stay this way until at least 2018. Sure sounds like a wonderful to strive towards. Man oh man this place is gonna be a dream to work for.

And for the last f*cking time, not one NO voter I know has brought up faster upgrades and delaying the ISL as reason to vote NO. Your EAL II scenario is completely delusional. Keep screaming it, but it will NEVER be true.

 

[Flopgut]

As an aside, I expected a huge battle with management over international scope. But apparently the protections on the upper end were easier to secure. Section 1 was to be (and is) my primary vote consideration and I have sufficient comfort with its contents.

In truth, Garth and company intend to vote this in, vote out JP and any other legitimate union leader, and then sell back the scope to jeff just like whiteford did. Check the update from the sUAL scope SME. Darn near giddy at the prospect of handing jeff a scope side letter that sells out the bottom half of the list.

 

[RT8VA]

After the arbitrator sees through your arguments and places you under the CAL pilots you think you deserve to be ahead of you are going to be stuck with one thing, a sub par contract you voted in to try and steal up grades that were NEVER going to be yours. These were orders and upgrades from years before the merger and you guys were selling spare parts to make ends meet. As for your giant wide body fleet your 767 pays less then our 737 so how did that work out for you making money. I cant wait for the arbitrators award and hearing you guys cry about how it isn't fair and the contract sucks. Put your clickers away I have never been more wrong about a group of pilots that I thought were up for fighting for a good contract, what a bunch of cowards and underhanded bull sheeters.

 

[Continental]

As much as we try I guess you just can't fix stupid. What's really frightening is that these same people operate multi million dollar airplanes are afraid of their own shadow. Can't wait to fly with such "fearless" people.

I remember a time when I was glad UAL was joining up. " We can finally have enough people to stand up and say enough".

Instead we have more on their knees saying " Can I have some more"?

I'm still hopeful these 2turds are in the minority and we can kill this thing

 

[eaglesview]

After the arbitrator sees through your arguments and places you under the CAL pilots you think you deserve to be ahead of you are going to be stuck with one thing, a sub par contract you voted in to try and steal up grades that were NEVER going to be yours. These were orders and upgrades from years before the merger and you guys were selling spare parts to make ends meet. As for your giant wide body fleet your 767 pays less then our 737 so how did that work out for you making money. I cant wait for the arbitrators award and hearing you guys cry about how it isn't fair and the contract sucks. Put your clickers away I have never been more wrong about a group of pilots that I thought were up for fighting for a good contract, what a bunch of cowards and underhanded bull sheeters.

Does not matter idiot, we'll be on the same contract. Our 100 more widebodies will do us well on the SLI so be sure and get the walkaround done before I get there, get the gear when I tell you and just shut up till spoken to.

 

[Continental]

Does not matter idiot, we'll be on the same contract. Our 100 more widebodies will do us well on the SLI so be sure and get the walkaround done before I get there, get the gear when I tell you and just shut up till spoken to.

More like I'll see you in recurrent. On your days off

I'll get the walk when I feel like it, throw gear when appropriate, and speak when I want to. You will never tell me how to do my job! Lets get that clear!

 

[list2002]

Feel the exact same way. I was looking forward to having the "hard line" United pilots in the fight with us.
That letter from Garth is pure poison to this future pilot group. Nothing would divide us more than this TA getting through. It's like he's giving all the panties an out. To the guy sick of hearing ME ME ME, your posts have been only about that. This contract passing will be 8 years of an entire pilot group living under a sub par contract and hanging their heads when asked where they work (except for those retiring soon). Garth tries to give l-UAL guys an out by saying it will be the Continetal guy's fault regardless, if it weren't for them we could vote based on the actual TA content. Nobody to blame but who voted yes.
Voting in a GUARANTEED IN WRITING concessionary contract, based on a PERCIEVED POSSIBLE CONSPIRACY that no one at said conspiring airline has heard of is insane. You come across like the dual of wits guy in Princess Bride.
Doesn't it concern you at ALL the extent that BOTH sides are going to to sell this?

 

[Flopgut]

Does not matter idiot, we'll be on the same contract. Our 100 more widebodies will do us well on the SLI so be sure and get the walkaround done before I get there, get the gear when I tell you and just shut up till spoken to.

No better than you've handled JP, I don't think you'll do too well with our merger committee. A little advice: Stow the attitude. No one has respect for you.

 

[Continental]

You come across like the dual of wits guy in Princess Bride.

That's inconceivable!

 

[flygirlqt]

Has it occurred to anyone (especially the Brain Surgeons) that the best way for pilots to forget that people in "various influential positions" have not delivered on numerous expectations, would be a leak with unfounded fears about SLI implications by rejecting this TA?

Before I left the CAL circus, I remember that CRM ground school where they showed the kids throwing the ball and the gorilla walks through the room, no one see the gorilla. Sort of the same thing going on here.

From a legal standpoint I have questions after reading the TPA about it's expiration. In numerous financial filings by UAL, it states replacement aircraft for ones being parked are slated for delivery on the LUAL side. The company is not set up for the disposition and transfer of assets like is being touted on here.

You are being played folks. Plain and simple.

 

[RT8VA]

Does not matter idiot, we'll be on the same contract. Our 100 more widebodies will do us well on the SLI so be sure and get the walkaround done before I get there, get the gear when I tell you and just shut up till spoken to.

I am a man first and although I suspect you wouldn't ever say that in person I can assure you the only walk I would be doing is off of the airplane and you could try and fly it alone. Thanks for the idiot comment but you better start looking at the last two mergers before you get too excited about the effect of your wide bodies. What you bring to the merger is what counts not what it ends up paying after the merger. I am done with this whole thread their are a lot of friends of mine at L-UAL that dont share your view.

Stop blaming every one when this is over and look in the mirror because you will be the one that voted yes.

 

[100/hour/5y]

LEC 153 Update for Monday, November 26th - We Get it

Monday, November 26, 2012

I. WE GET IT
We have thought long and hard, and we have realized something—we get it. For those of you who support this TA, it is not about the slap in the face of having pay rates that lag behind Delta’s by exactly a year. It is not about capitulating to 76-seat RJs and the trend of allowing larger RJs each time we negotiate a contract. It is not about the lack of retroactive pay that allows the Company to drag their feet at the expense of every one of us. No—it is not about any of those things.

What is driving you to support this TA is that you are afraid of what the future may bring. We get it—we are afraid of the future too!

We are afraid that we will be stuck with a contract that doesn’t compensate us appropriately for our level of professionalism. We are afraid that hindsight will reveal that we didn’t achieve as much in this TA as we could have. We are afraid that we will further erode our profession by establishing a precedent of never exceeding industry standard. We are afraid that ALPA’s strategy to success of pattern bargaining will become impotent. And lastly (and our biggest fear of all), we are afraid that this TA will drive such a giant wedge between the two pilot groups that the SLI process will seem pleasant by comparison.

The problem we see is that the rationale many are using to support this TA is that they “just want to get it over with.” While we understand and share everyone’s frustration and feel equally fatigued by the process, we aren’t quite sure why you would want to minimize and rush through such a huge undertaking. This is not a contract for the next few years—this is the contract that will define this new United pilot group forever. If it takes a few more months, then so be it. The short-term losses will be more than made up for by the long-term gains.

And by the way—for our L-UAL brothers and sisters who might stumble upon this update, please allow us to clarify one significant point: We have no secret agenda, no strategy to delay all of us getting a new contract, and absolutely no goal of perpetuating a whip saw! Our sole agenda is to secure a contract that will treat all of us as the safe and professional pilots we are. Period. End of story.

Those of us on the L-CAL side do have the advantage of knowing how this management team operates. Trust us when we are skeptical or think that something doesn’t seem right. We’ve seen it too many times, and we are trying to protect all of us.

Furthermore, this isn’t a race to the integrated seniority list either. We hear a lot of concerns about being the next America West/US Air. They are mired in SLI issues which prevent them from working on a JCBA. We have the benefit of learning from their mistakes and are working on the JCBA before we tread down that dark path of SLI. Quite honestly, if all of us were working under a contract that we truly felt was adequate and rewarding, who would really care if we didn’t have an integrated seniority list? We’d be too busy enjoying that warm feeling of confidence and respect to care about the Company’s ability to mix us together.

Lastly (and this is along the lines of a post script), you do realize that there is absolutely nothing you—or anyone else—can do to affect the outcome of the SLI, right? It will be decided by an arbitrator, and we would bet that just about everyone will wish they could vote “no” on the combined seniority list. That’s just the reality of it, so why fight with your professional brothers and sisters? How about we focus our frustration, anger, and fear towards management and make sure we are confident that the Company has reached as deep into their pockets as they can so that all of us can proudly put the United Airlines name on the cover of our new contract.

II. HITTING THE ROAD
As a reminder, in addition to the MEC/JNC road shows that are making their rounds starting this week, we are hosting our own special LEC meetings. Here are the schedules for both. All LEC 153 town hall meetings run from 1130–1400, and everyone is welcome.

November 28 and December 3
Gulliver’s
18482 MacArthur Boulevard
Irvine, CA 92612-1074
949-833-8411
Get directions
November 29 and December 5
Proud Bird Restaurant
11022 Aviation Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-670-3093
(The airport bus to Employee lot “E,” which is adjacent to the restaurant can be used.)
Get directions
December 7
Residence Inn San Diego Oceanside
3603 Ocean Ranch Boulevard
Oceanside, CA 92056
760-722-9600
Get directions

MEC/JNC Roadshows

LAX
December 12
Proud Bird Restaurant
0900–1300 and 1400–1800

SFO
December 13
SFO Airport DoubleTree
0900–1300

III. A WORD FROM YOUR SECRETARY-TREASURER
The upcoming TA vote provides a unique opportunity to explicitly direct your reps, committee members, and ALPA in general. You, as an individual ALPA member, will make a choice on whether this TA lives up to your expectations. As an ALPA rep, I cannot make this decision for you. It is my duty to provide you with clear and honest information about the choice you have. Clearly, a yes or no vote should not be based on fear. It should be based solely on your personal expectations using the best information you have available.

I am positive everyone will find flaws in this agreement, but I am also sure that everyone will find something they like. I have heard great arguments for both the yes and no votes. I will not advocate a yes or a no vote, but will do my best to provide clear information about the TA, so that each pilot can make his or her own decision.

Rob, Mike, and Josh​

 

[sniper]

Does not matter idiot, we'll be on the same contract. Our 100 more widebodies will do us well on the SLI so be sure and get the walkaround done before I get there, get the gear when I tell you and just shut up till spoken to.[/QUOT





That was not necessary.....come on

 

[100/hour/5y]

An Incredible Letter by UAL LC 27 Chairman

November 26, 2012


VOTE YES OR NO; BUT DON’T VOTE OUT OF FEAR


By now you have had the opportunity to begin reviewing the proposed TA the MECs sent to you by a 12-3 vote at United, and a 7-4 vote at Continental. The ratification window opens November 30, 2012 (this is a change) and closes December 15, 2012…

While other venues exist to explain each section of the TA, this “Chairman’s View” does not. One issue that pervades much of the discussion that I’ve heard recently is the question “What happens if the TA is voted down?”

If the TA is not ratified by the UAL & CAL pilots in a combined vote there are a couple of possible scenarios that I think you should consider:

First, the world will come to an end and everything bad that could happen to UAL pilots will.

Second, if the TA is turned down, and I believe this is a far more realistic scenario, the NMB will immediately come to ALPA to begin a focused effort to determine what modification (s) would increase the likelihood of a TA that could be ratified. Early in that process, the NMB, UAL & ALPA will meet to determine a reasonable schedule for resumptions of negotiations as all of the Parties have already agreed to in the Transition and Process Agreement and the 2012 extension of same name:

TPA.2-K. Mediation for a JCBA. If the JNCs do not reach a tentative JCBA by
October 12, 2010, the Parties (unless they otherwise agree) will apply to the NMB no later than October 14, 2010 under Sections 5 and 6 of the RLA, for mediation
of the JCBA. If at any time the JNCs reach a tentative JCBA but it fails to be approved, ratified or executed under ALPA procedures, the Parties will apply for or resume the NMB’s mediatory services, unless they agree not to do so.

Our job now is to evaluate and assess the TA before us. Did reading it make you happy? Is this what you expected? Does this TA reflect improved career security? Is our profession advanced with this agreement? Does this TA adequately reflect the value that pilots bring to this airline? Are you content living with this TA for the next 4-+ years?

Don’t be afraid to vote no if the TA does not sway you on its merits. There is no set timeline; but there is a process to follow. The two NMB officials that I have talked with said that the dynamics are different in each case. Remember, the NMB’s mandate is to get two parties to an AGREEMENT, not a holding pattern. Every presentation that I personally heard from NMB members was about guiding the negotiations toward an agreement. If this TA is voted down by the membership, the NMB will accept their Congressional mandate and bring the parties back to the table for further discussions. They will pressure ALPA as well as UAL to get to a deal that will be ratified. The NMB recognizes that TAs are on occasion voted down. It is part of the negotiation process. When was the last time the NMB parked negotiations after a NO vote if neither party requested a period of no negotiations? The answer is never. If someone says the company will walk away from negotiations, have them read the TPA. No party wants to walk away from their duties related to this merger, least of all the NMB.

The plan to create the world’s largest airline must have a combined pilot group to become a reality. Management knows our ratification timetable, and they know the negotiation/arbitration timeline for securing a single Integrated Seniority List. Smisek has always had his own timetable for signing a JCBA, completing the ISL process, and reaping the full rewards of this merger. He has stalled at every opportunity for 2.5 years. His purpose was to fatigue and frustrate; to divide and whipsaw; in short, to make us feel vulnerable and act out of desperation. Is this TA the deal you want? If so, then vote yes. If it is not, then consider your perspective when answering the question on the picket sign.

It is doubtful that there is a lot of sand left in Jeffery’s hourglass. If there was, why would he have attempted to negotiate shortening the SLI process last January? Why did he refuse to permanently bridge the terminable clauses in the original TPA and instead insist that there was a TA in place prior to a March 31, 2013 deadline in TPAx? Why do we continue to slog through all the assimilation phases of what laughingly is called training these days? Why did Fred’s friends freak out, insisting that every pilot order midnight blues from M&H by December 1?

A NO vote on the TA will not transform Smisek. He is who he is…and by every measure, so far, he is a failure as a Legacy CEO. He has painted the planes faster than anyone I‘ve ever seen, but everyone knows that paint is only skin deep. I know he believes his own PR…but does anyone else, anymore? Every previous merger related initiative by Smisek can accurately be described as Not Ready for Prime Time. From the rush to get SOC to the pax reservation system; from pass policy to IPAD deployment; from the industry denounced scheme to train in fixed based simulators to the massive shift of control over pilots’ lives in this TA…NRFPT!

His mentors were the historical villains of our industry and Jeffery, unlike his peer at DAL, is stride for stride burning all the bridges to a successful merger. Richard Anderson, DAL CEO, made a business decision to pay a premium to his pilots in order to get everyone pulling on the same end of the rope…it worked just like in the story books. Wall Street knows it, the customers know it, and we all know it. Smisek must succeed in completing this merger or his only fan will be his mother. He cannot take UAL to the promised land of this merger except through the JCBA; so, what is that key to “his” success worth to you? How much sand is left in the hourglass?

Another doomsday “scary” argument that some are making is really, in my opinion, just an attempt to further intimidate you and question your realistic and reasonable direction to the MEC. Management will pull all the “good stuff” out of the deal if we attempt to renegotiate. Really? How much “good stuff” is to be found? Does this make sense? How could they ever expect any deal if there was no “good stuff”? If there are enough pilots between the combined United/Continental group that vote NO, management will be compelled to find out what needs to be fixed. Remember, despite a strategy to make you think otherwise, Smisek wants and needs an agreement so he can get the integrated pilot group and begin to fly as one airline. Management gains no economic or negotiating advantage by trashing the deal out of spite or perceived buyer’s remorse. This is a deal they have crafted; let’s not kid ourselves! They WANT this thing done. They’ll posture and intimate that the deal will be different, but in the end they will have to work with us for a re-negotiated deal.

In June, Doug Parker at USAIR said, "We are obviously disappointed that our flight attendants chose to vote against ratification of a new contract," Doug Parker, US Airways' Chairman and CEO, said in a news release. "This tentative agreement was the result of years of deliberate negotiations and was achieved with the instrumental assistance and hard work of the National Mediation Board (NMB). It was also unanimously approved by the AFA negotiating committee. We will now consult with the NMB and AFA leadership to determine the best steps going forward to one day reach a ratified agreement.” This is boiler-plate language and you can expect to hear something very similar if this TA is rejected.

Whether you vote to ratify or not is completely your choice and your responsibility. As unionists, I know the members of C27 are not reluctant to stand up on their hind legs and live their principles. Remember, parroting fear based arguments is just another way to sell something. The “Key Men” who founded our union analyzed the risks and decided to engage the enemy in a business-like manner that would define a profession. Today, the decision is yours.

Your vote should be on the merits of the TA –
don’t vote out of fear.




Jeffrey Berg
Chairman, Council 27 / UALMEC