CAL ALPA: UAL's Contract Dissenting opinion is out!

[Yuppyguppy]

Hmmm. Loss of a couple days or loss of an upgrade or WB seat due to TPA exp. I don't know. Did CAL MEC sign an agreement not to take our replacement aircraft when 80 of LUAL 757s leave?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

It's not ALPA it's Jeff Lorenzo and Fred and friends that bother me. You do remember EAL and CAL right?

 

[100/hour/5y]

LAX LEC 153 Update for November 21st, The Big Picture

Wednesday, November 21, 2012



I. THE BIG PICTURE
For better or for worse, most of us have experienced the “Adrenaline” (technically epinephrine) rush triggered by a traumatic event. Your heart rate quickens, your react instinctively, and you become acutely focused. But after that initial high, the body eventually experiences a low period when the sympathetic response tapers off. That is when things calm down, your vision widens, and you can think a little more clearly. That is what we are experiencing now that it has been more than a week since the TA has been released. And now that the dust is settling, this is the time to view the TA from the “big picture” perspective.


Last week we presented you with our Dissenting Opinion, which explained why we voted against approving the TA. While the list of items we feel are either concessionary or inadequate was quite exhaustive, in our “big picture” view it really boils down to the four cornerstones- compensation, scope, retirement and work rules. With this TA, we are below the industry standard in both compensation & work rules and arguably at industry standard in both scope & retirement.


Having said that, we would now like to ask you to put that aside for a minute, take a few steps back (both in time and in perspective), and try to envision our collective “big picture.”


When negotiations resumed following the merger announcement, both MECs confidently touted that this was our opportunity to capitalize on our unprecedented leverage and develop an industry-leading contract for our industry-leading pilots of what was supposed to become our industry-leading airline. We knew that for this merger to be successful, our management would need our help. We knew that without the joint contracts that Mr. Smisek testified he could expeditiously achieve, this merger will never be considered complete. We knew we were in control.


So now we have to wonder- what happened? Where did we go wrong? Were we deceived? Did we deceive? Or did we fail? Honestly, we aren't sure. We still have that same leverage, yet we are looking at a TA that does not encompass the best of both individual contracts. Instead the TA we are looking at is middle of the road, and is even a couple steps below the bar in some sections. The truth is that we have yet to come across anyone who has confidently stated that this TA has met their expectations.


What we have seen is that unfortunately, this TA is not being measured on it's merit, but rather it is being considered on the basis of fear. Fear that if we vote this down, we will be parked. Fear that we will lose money waiting for negotiations to resume. Fear that the company will attempt to take back provisions it has already agreed to. And fear that one pilot group will be pitted against the other. While all the above are valid concerns- and it is important to be cognizant of them- most of those are worries that exist in any negotiation cycle. If we succumbed to them every time a contract became amendable, we would end up always biting at the first offer made to us and never get ahead.


We strongly believe that should this TA be rejected by the pilots as a whole, we will quickly reengage with the company and make worthwhile improvements in the process. They recognize that in order for this merger to be complete, they need us to have a joint contract. They know they are close. They know that we expect an industry-leading contract. It is up to us to make sure we receive everything we deserve and make this a contract all of us can work under for many years.


In the big picture- this TA will not only affect our combined pilot group, but it will determine the future of our union and the future of all professional pilots as well. We control the future of this airline and the future of airline pilots across the country. Now is not the time to settle for anything less than industry-leading.


II. TICKETS STILL AVAILABLE
With five “performances” scheduled throughout Southern California, seats are still available for our special LEC meetings in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Oceanside. We look forward to discussing the TA, answering questions and hearing your concerns. All pilots (both L-CAL and L-UAL) are invited, as are family members. After all- this affects them almost as much as it affects you!


Orange County - Gulliver's
Wednesday, November 28
Monday, December 3


Los Angeles - The Proud Bird
Thursday, November 29
Wednesday, December 5


Oceanside - Residence Inn
Friday, December 7


All times are 1130-1400. Please see our website for details.


III. I AM THANKFUL FOR...
In closing, it is also important to step back and look at all the things we are thankful for in the big picture- family, friends, health, safety, security, etc. Please take a moment to think about all you have to be thankful for and enjoy your Thanksgiving Day...where ever you may be.




Visit our website:www.LEC153.org


Robert McCartney
LC 153 Chairman
Robert.McCartney@alpa.org
949-LAX-153-1 (529-1531) Mike Seidner
LC 153 Vice Chairman
Mike.Seidner@alpa.org
949-LAX-153-2 (529-1532) Joshua Berlin
LC 153 Secretary-Treasurer
Joshua.Berlin@alpa.org
949-LAX-153-0 (529-1530)

 

[Crucianpilot]

Hmmm. Loss of a couple days or loss of an upgrade or WB seat due to TPA exp. I don't know. Did CAL MEC sign an agreement not to take our replacement aircraft when 80 of LUAL 757s leave?

Those a/c are being replaced with 737-900er's that UAL is flying. Not CAL.

 

[Flopgut]

It's not ALPA it's Jeff Lorenzo and Fred and friends that bother me. You do remember EAL and CAL right?

No pilot in this deal is going to end up as bad off as the guys hired in 85 at UAL made sure the old Frontier guys did, including you. You do remember that right? Us CAL guys should be just as worried about you, but we're not. So try to muster some self asteem and see this for what it is: A low ball offer.

Per IAH FO rep: The TPA does not expire because we have reached a TA. Beyond that, if we vote this down Pachula and the NMB will be back in the equation and will not allow a status quo change that takes us one step down the road Lorenzo took EAL.

There has not been one contract with these CAL MGT types go down where we have not been laughed at for leaving money on the table. It's the same thing this time.

 

[eaglesview]

No pilot in this deal is going to end up as bad off as the guys hired in 85 at UAL made sure the old Frontier guys did, including you. You do remember that right? Us CAL guys should be just as worried about you, but we're not. So try to muster some self asteem and see this for what it is: A low ball offer.

Per IAH FO rep: The TPA does not expire because we have reached a TA. Beyond that, if we vote this down Pachula and the NMB will be back in the equation and will not allow a status quo change that takes us one step down the road Lorenzo took EAL.

There has not been one contract with these CAL MGT types go down where we have not been laughed at for leaving money on the table. It's the same thing this time.

Wow I thought you could just read my mind but apparently your super powers have no limits.

Your last paragraph speaks volumes. Read our Jay's letter sent to our pilots.

 

[canadflyau]

Seems like false fear.

I believe our ALPA merger policy requires a TPA to be in place. It has already been extended once. This is to protect us from a US Air style whipsaw.. No SLI until JCBA.

 

[Flopgut]

Wow I thought you could just read my mind but apparently your super powers have no limits.

Your last paragraph speaks volumes. Read our Jay's letter sent to our pilots.

I read it.

If the TA passes in it's current form, do this: Make a copy that letter and stick in your flight bag. Get it out in two years and read it. Don't hit yourself in the forehead too hard when you recall voting "yes" because you believed him.

 

[Flopgut]

My observation is that 80% or so of this TA shows some effort was put in. Not saying I like that much of it [almost none], but it does represent an acheivment of sorts. However, it looks like the JNC slopped together a bunch of it at the last second under the premise that there was a deadline. What deadline were they under? I realize we are being fed the notion that the T&PA was going to expire, but we extended it once, it really doesn't expire because we have a TA, and the NMB won't let this go like Eastern. The only thing I can see that we were truly up against was normal retirement progression starting. Is it possible that we are all being played by a bunch of old pilots that simply want to make certain none of their fellow old guys are pushed out the door at 65 without their contract bonus?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

For those of you that don't know Garth he is a well respected DEN pilot that has been doing ALPA work non-stop for his entire career! He is also not one to put things out frequently so please take that into consideration when you read his well though out letter.


I’ve been reluctant to join the fray, as my time is consumed by caring for a terminally ill family member. However, I’ve read and heard opinions that bother me to the point of speaking out.

This pilot group has fought long and hard through many difficult years and circumstances. Millions have been spent on picketing events, newspaper ads, lawyers, advisors, lobbyists, and flight pay loss. We have battled intransigent managements, prodded a reluctant NMB, and have worked through differences with some CAL pilot representatives seeking to advantage CAL pilots to our (and the eventual combined group’s) detriment. Finally, we find ourselves in possession of a TA and face an important decision.

I have worked through the TA, have read others’ pros and cons and reasons for voting, and plan to attend a road show and watch a the TA videos. There are many things I like and at least a handful of items disappoint me. Most importantly, I am left with the conclusion that our MEC and its agents have obtained the best agreement possible, given the opportunities and challenges presented.

Having served on the Merger Committee, RCRC (predecessor to Domestic Code Share Committee) and SPSC, related issues have drawn my attention. I suffer no delusion that I’m some prominent expert on any subject. But like most pilots, I have opinions…

In February of 2008, the UAL and CAL merger committees met in Manhattan (the negotiating committees met as well) to discuss strategies to best navigate the pilots through contract negotiations and seniority integration. The result was a protocol intended to place the JCBA before and apart from seniority integration considerations and activities. The fallout at US Airways created by the arbitration award commanded our attention, and our goal was to prevent SLI considerations from denying the pilots a JCBA. The protocol was slightly amended and implemented when the two airlines finally announced their intent to merge in 2010.

However as we’ve seen, SLI-related considerations inevitably poisoned the well and served to delay the creation of negotiating proposals. Pay banding was embraced by certain CAL MEC members as some clever method to cloud the issue of widebody jobs. Foot-dragging persisted while equipment bids were published, new bases were announced, and CAL pilots were trained to fly new aircraft. Even the just cause of obtaining furloughee longevity credit for pay, vacation, etc., was resisted for SLI “gain”. Sadly, the JCBA TA is impacted by this foolishness and the byproduct is lost money, benefits, and seat movements, NOT A DIFFERENT SLI OUTCOME. In my opinion (an opinion consistent with past seniority awards), arbitrators will focus on pre-merger equities when fashioning a list. They will give little, if any, consideration to the contents of the JCBA. So to me, the pay bands and partial longevity restoration issues are disappointing but not a basis for TA rejection, given present reality.

As an MEC member I was heavily involved in the debate surrounding “regional” jets in 1996 and 1997. My outspokenness led to my appointment as “token radical” to the newly created Regional Carrier Review Committee (RCRC). I’ll skip the history, but I can safely say that I have always held very aggressive views regarding scope and outsourcing, and I lament the inept handing of these issues by major airline pilot groups over the last 16+ years. While I am disappointed that 76 seat Express aircraft are permitted in the TA, I am confident that Section 1 restrictions, along with regulatory and economic influences, will result in a smaller regional airline role. As an aside, I expected a huge battle with management over international scope. But apparently the protections on the upper end were easier to secure. Section 1 was to be (and is) my primary vote consideration and I have sufficient comfort with its contents.

Finally, and I’m sorry for the length, I want to chime in on our present situation. Ramifications of rejecting the TA are a real and relevant factor to consider. Considering and discussing them does not constitute fear mongering or lacking certain anatomy. We are accustomed to gathering facts and recommendations when faced with a decision, and deciding how to vote should be no different.

There is much debate centered on the likely outcome should the TA be rejected. Given where we’ve been, and the recent behavior exhibited by management, the NMB, and CAL MEC leadership, I can only conclude that little good will come out of a rejection. In my opinion, a lengthy delay will occur before we see TA2, and any new TA will not contain significant improvements. In the mean time United Pilots, furloughed and active, will lose money and face more stagnation and inequity. Keep in mind we would have to reach consensus with a CAL MEC that may be content with status quo (and expiring TPA provisions), before engaging with a likely “patient” NMB and a management team that understands the situation.

There are real and significant gains for the combined pilots in the JCBA TA. After weighing these gains against the disappointments, and after considering vote ramifications, I intend to vote for the TA.

Garth Thompson


CAL guys you have everything to gain from a NO vote. LUAL guys have everything to lose. I hope we out vote you. YES!

 

[Continental]

hey Garth Thompson F You! You are a weak di&$ed P&:;y and a sellout. unless your Jesus himself I'm not listening. 'm going to take what you said and wipe my a$$ with it. Last I checked your a pilot. So don't tell me about what I can and can't get you F'n sellout m'f'er

I'm f'n tired of getting F'd every month and I mean every month here at LCal and you bast'ards are going to let them keep raping the horses and riding off on the women. Grow a pair and stand up. You might want to read up on when this POS TA goes into effect. If could take up to 3,6,9,12 months for some stuff. Well least summer of next year for scheduling rules. Think about that. If this passes I don't want to hear sheet from you LUal guys. Unless your furloughed then complain all you want cause your so called brothers sold you out. Fact!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

You and the CAL boys will not get your seat grab and seniority steal at our expense. Period.

 

[Flopgut]

Question: Does Garth think UAL pilots deserve a pass on their past behavior? CAL ALPA is proceeding with caution for a reason. We are watching our back because UAL ALPA does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. We watched as you all boasted about dismatling America West and USAir. We all work with Frontier pilots who's lives you destroyed (only months after they honored your strike). Not one of us have any illusion what you guys would be trying to pull if you were operating from a position of strength. sUAL pilots are getting fairer deal out of us than you would have in the cards for us. Quit your bitching.

 

[nimtz]

You and the CAL boys will not get your seat grab and seniority steal at our expense. Period.

You are delusional sir.

 

[Continental]

You and the CAL boys will not get your seat grab and seniority steal at our expense. Period.

I don't want a seat grab and seniority at anyone's expense. I want an industry leading contract with iron clad scope and full 100% retro. I want iron clad language. I want more days at home not less.

You have no idea what your walking into.

Yuppyguppy you must be a Marvin through and through!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

2 words... FRANK LORENZO

 

[nimtz]

2 words... FRANK LORENZO

Well at least I get to enjoy a knowing chuckle when I hear tirades of "how the *** does the contract allow that" from guys like you.

 

[Flopgut]

You and the CAL boys will not get your seat grab and seniority steal at our expense. Period.

So you're not really interested in a good contract? Figures. jeff appreciates you greatly.

Btw: So far you've only dealt with JP. You might ought not be in a hurry to get to the next phase of this deal. Cause trust me, you're not equipped. If all you've got is a no vote on this contract, you've arrived at gun fight with a knife.

 

[Continental]

2 words... FRANK LORENZO

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees Emilliano Zapata.
too bad you would do the opposite

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Tough talk on the forum I've had enough. Good luck to all.