CAL 737 pilots

[waveflyer]

SW has the PF work the mcp if the autopilot's on - and the PM work it if handflying. We do have to both point at all changes now.
I've got six airlines, I've never had the PM work the altitude with the AP on.
Did they give a reason? What's that supposed to accomplish?

 

[eaglesview]

For what it's worth we feel the same way about the changes on the airbus on the UAL side. Diffrence is I don't think the one making the changes has ever seen the inside of the bus. We are not a Boeing but they are trying to make us operate like one. Just keep laughing it's all thats left.

 

[SWA Bubba]

SW has the PF work the mcp if the autopilot's on - and the PM work it if handflying. We do have to both point at all changes now.
I've got six airlines, I've never had the PM work the altitude with the AP on.
Did they give a reason? What's that supposed to accomplish?

Don't know how long you've been here, Wave, or if you don't remember or not, but actually that's how SWA used to do it, until just a few years bask: The PF always "owned" the MCP with the sole exception of the altitude window. When the PM read back an altitude change on the radio, he (the PM) selected the new altitude on the MCP, with the PF concurring. That was with or without the autopilot on.

Now, we do what you described above (we made this change a few years back with the whole PFD/VNAV/RNP package of changes): With Autopilot on, the PF makes changes to MCP (incl altitude) and the PM concurs; with autopilot off, the PM makes changes to MCP (incl altitude) with the PF concurring.

Which is better? Who knows... I suppose it's what you're used to doing.

Bubba

 

[densoo]

I think this was driven by many ASAP reports stating that the PM was not in the loop on the altitude change because he was making PA, getting ATIS, or otherwise off line. PF put in wrong altitude and there was no backup. I think the new change will make things worse because now the PF can't hear it, do it, when there's a change. It creates an extra step in which a delay, distraction, or misreading can come into play.

 

[Furloughed80]

I assumed this new procedure is what sUA used; is that not true?

 

[IAHERJ]

True statement. Continental led the industry in altitude busts in the United Kingdom for years. Could have been that we operated more than any U.S. airline for many years there but nevertheless we had issues. This was not a battle we chose to fight. United had better altitude compliance so this was adopted as an in-state procedure as it was seen as a "best practice".

 

[densoo]

True statement. Continental led the industry in altitude busts in the United Kingdom for years. Could have been that we operated more than any U.S. airline for many years there but nevertheless we had issues. This was not a battle we chose to fight. United had better altitude compliance so this was adopted as an in-state procedure as it was seen as a "best practice".

Thanks for the insight. Hope the change helps, although I don't think who spins that knob will make a lot of difference. After viewing the Phase 4 training I'm a lot more concerned about the flare-to-land discussion regarding crab, slip, and slip/crab than about the altitude set knob.

 

[propjob27]

Just for reference, I have worked at 3 different airlines. CAL was the only one that had the PF select the altitude on the MCP. What do they do at AA, DL, or US?

FYI:

FedEx: autopilot on, PF makes all changes to FCP/MCP whatever you want to call it.

Autopilot off, PM makes all changes to FCP/MCP

Either way, other pilot has to verbally verifity the change (if it was an altitude), ie "12,000 set". No verbal verification for heading / airspeed changes

 

[list2002]

I saw that slip to land section on the overview in our V-files and agree... not what I was taught, had a few captains insist I slip during a crosswind landing, um, no thanks.

 

[eaglesview]

True statement. Continental led the industry in altitude busts in the United Kingdom for years. Could have been that we operated more than any U.S. airline for many years there but nevertheless we had issues. This was not a battle we chose to fight. United had better altitude compliance so this was adopted as an in-state procedure as it was seen as a "best practice".

I don't think this is due to MCP procedures rather than the having the relief pilot deadheading on flights less than 8 hours going east. The pilots were exauhsted. I think UA/CO procedures will continue to morf long after the merger and the combined group will come up with what's best.

 

[IAHERJ]

I don't think this is due to MCP procedures rather than the having the relief pilot deadheading on flights less than 8 hours going east. The pilots were exauhsted. I think UA/CO procedures will continue to morf long after the merger and the combined group will come up with what's best.

I completely agree with what you are saying. The protocol for adopting the "best practice" in areas where each carrier had different procedures called for each side to adopt either UAL or CAL procedures. On issues of altitude and altitude setting procedures on the MCP, CAL could not argue that their method led to less altitude deviations thus the UAL argument won out in the end without much of a fight from the CAL guys in the room.

 

[Abernathy]

I saw that slip to land section on the overview in our V-files and agree... not what I was taught, had a few captains insist I slip during a crosswind landing, um, no thanks.

Can you guys elaborate on what you're talking about as this sounds interesting..

 

[densoo]

Can you guys elaborate on what you're talking about as this sounds interesting..

Crosswind landing techniques.

 

[aa73]

AA = PM puts in altitude changes at all times, A/P on or off. Sets the altitude and "points and shoots" to it until the PF confirms it. Seems like a safe enough procedure.

 

[eaglesview]

AA = PM puts in altitude changes at all times, A/P on or off. Sets the altitude and "points and shoots" to it until the PF confirms it. Seems like a safe enough procedure.

This is what UA does however I think that is changing. I may be wrong about that as I havn't done the latest training yet.