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Cabotage

densoo

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yes
Sooner than we think?
The highlight of the North American Region IFALPA meeting was a presentation, followed by a question and answer period. Of particular interest, specifically considering reports this week concerning CAL, UAL and ANA discussing an application for antitrust immunity and a possible joint venture, was the progress being made towards an open skies agreement between the US and Japan. I specifically asked about the likelihood that Japan would agree to an open skies treaty acceptable to the US by the end of the year. He thought it was very likely. Talks are progressing very rapidly this week in Japan and another round is scheduled to begin on Dec. 7. In order for the DOT to seriously consider a grant of immunity for these carriers, the issue of open skies with Japan must be settled. We will be watching this very closely in order to ensure that there is compliance with the scope provisions of our CBA.
 
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Lear70

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The airlines can talk about it all they want.

That's why ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC contributions are so important. We'll have to rely on our lobbying in D.C. to keep the DOT from granting them immunity to the cabotage laws.

This is an issue that will absolutely require our vigilance... Let THIS camel's nose in under the tent and there won't be a tent left,,,
 

scoreboardII

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DITTO.

How hard will it be for our mainlines to get foreign pilots to do our work for half? Not hard.
 

nonstop

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Couple things.

We're the cheap labor, Americans.

JetBlue and Skywest are looking out for us so we have nothing to worry about.
 

Dumb Pilot

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Couple things.

We're the cheap labor, Americans.

JetBlue and Skywest are looking out for us so we have nothing to worry about.


No kidding, when are we going to understand that we are the lowest paid pilots of all the industrialized nations
 

HalinTexas

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Foreign ownership just might save our jobs. Look at Fiat. Our present system hasn't really worked out so well. Don't tell me it will be worse. It's like saying that Obama's $800M stimulus, of which about $90M has been paid out in UE and other entitlements, has "saved" jobs. Can't/won't ever be able to prove it.
 

scoreboardII

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I didn't say industrialized, I should have said South American labor.

Some of those carriers top out at $60,000 for a bus CA.

$30,000 in Brazil or Guatemala and you live like a king.

Imagine a few folks from south of the border crossing on a commute to start their three day out of DFW, DET, you get the picture, and same time zone!!
 

wolfie

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Obama said he was against cabotage...hopefully his administration can stick up for unions once again. I know campaign promises are just that, but at least his views are more pilot friendly than hater Senator McCain.
 

crj567

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No kidding, when are we going to understand that we are the lowest paid pilots of all the industrialized nations

The key is "industrialized." There are plenty of places south of the border where they could find people and train them to fly far, far cheaper then they what we work for.

Why do you think there are so few U.S.-flagged curise ships? Min wage is the main reason-U.S. flagged vessels have to comply with U.S. wage and labor rules-you can pay the folks from many countries around the world what you think you can get away with-same could happen to airlines. People never think twice about getting on a cruise ship with a foreign crew-training and background of these guys is not even something they consider for a second.

-The same thing probably will happen to all U.S. airlines-eventally. People will think "wow-I paid $59 for a flight to Amsterdam on this big-ass plane? Sweet!"
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Foreign ownership just might save our jobs. Look at Fiat. Our present system hasn't really worked out so well. Don't tell me it will be worse. It's like saying that Obama's $800M stimulus, of which about $90M has been paid out in UE and other entitlements, has "saved" jobs. Can't/won't ever be able to prove it.


Don't use the auto industry for comparison.....

How many times are you going to trust the scorpion...giving him a ride across the river?
 

jtf

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While I totally oppose this from happening, for a Japanese airline to be able to do it, even in a limited way, would actually be kind of fair since United and NW/Delta have been using NRT as a hub for quite a while and also do connections out of Nagoya and Osaka. I don't think they are allowed to do domestic flights within Japan, but they most definitely have their foot in the door over there in a way that pretty much all foreign carriers would love to do in America. I have no idea why Japan lets them do it, but I sure hope America never reciprocates.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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While I totally oppose this from happening, for a Japanese airline to be able to do it, even in a limited way, would actually be kind of fair since United and NW/Delta have been using NRT as a hub for quite a while and also do connections out of Nagoya and Osaka. I don't think they are allowed to do domestic flights within Japan, but they most definitely have their foot in the door over there in a way that pretty much all foreign carriers would love to do in America. I have no idea why Japan lets them do it, but I sure hope America never reciprocates.


The US won the war. Same in Europe. In addition, those countries didn't have resources to run an airline at the time. Service was needed.

But that isn't the issue now.

It is about money. Labor Protection Provisions are needed. The global industry can grow.. just not at labors expense...
 

NEDude

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The key is "industrialized." There are plenty of places south of the border where they could find people and train them to fly far, far cheaper then they what we work for.

Why do you think there are so few U.S.-flagged curise ships? Min wage is the main reason-U.S. flagged vessels have to comply with U.S. wage and labor rules-you can pay the folks from many countries around the world what you think you can get away with-same could happen to airlines. People never think twice about getting on a cruise ship with a foreign crew-training and background of these guys is not even something they consider for a second.

-The same thing probably will happen to all U.S. airlines-eventally. People will think "wow-I paid $59 for a flight to Amsterdam on this big-ass plane? Sweet!"

We are not just the lowest paid pilots in the "industrialized" world, we are about the lowest paid pilots all together. Most Latin American pilots who want to go overseas go to China and the middle east because the pay there is far better than in the USA. Look at all of the contract jobs out there (Rishworth, PARC, etc), look at the pay and benefits - typically far better than what you get in the USA, and then look at the locations - typically 3rd world countries. Why anyone would want to try and come to fly in the USA is far beyond me, our pay, working conditions and job stability is below that of even most third world airlines.

I said it in another thread but I will say it again, pilots in other countries have to worry about Americans coming and taking their jobs far more than American pilots have to worry about them taking ours. There is a very good chance that the Cathay, Qatar, Korean Air, JAL, Emirates, Etihad and other widebody jets you see in places ORD, JKF, LAX were flown in by American pilots.
 

bizicmo

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We are not just the lowest paid pilots in the "industrialized" world, we are about the lowest paid pilots all together. Most Latin American pilots who want to go overseas go to China and the middle east because the pay there is far better than in the USA. Look at all of the contract jobs out there (Rishworth, PARC, etc), look at the pay and benefits - typically far better than what you get in the USA, and then look at the locations - typically 3rd world countries. Why anyone would want to try and come to fly in the USA is far beyond me, our pay, working conditions and job stability is below that of even most third world airlines.

I said it in another thread but I will say it again, pilots in other countries have to worry about Americans coming and taking their jobs far more than American pilots have to worry about them taking ours. There is a very good chance that the Cathay, Qatar, Korean Air, JAL, Emirates, Etihad and other widebody jets you see in places ORD, JKF, LAX were flown in by American pilots.


I would agree. If there was any true behind the pilot shortage rumor, it would be a worldwide shortage at best. In the U.S. there is a gut.
 

Flopgut

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This subject inspired a new avatar. Our biggest adversary in this fight will be the cake eaters. He'll throw us all under the bus for one more piece.
 

PBRstreetgang

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Couple things.

We're the cheap labor, Americans.

JetBlue and Skywest are looking out for us so we have nothing to worry about.
Don't forget, how many Japanese pilots will work with almost 0 health benefits like SKYW employees will be in 2 years? I am thinking that Somali warlords would make great MECs.
PBR
 

Dan Roman

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Don't forget, how many Japanese pilots will work with almost 0 health benefits like SKYW employees will be in 2 years? I am thinking that Somali warlords would make great MECs.
PBR

If that's the case how come so many Japanese carriers can't find Japanese pilots and have had to resort to hiring Americans and paying them very well?

Seems to me Asia is wealth of passengers willing to buy tickets and there is a real shortage of qualified pilots over there to fly them. More traffic, no one to fly them=more jobs for qualified American pilots in this case.
 

jonjuan

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If that's the case how come so many Japanese carriers can't find Japanese pilots and have had to resort to hiring Americans and paying them very well?

Seems to me Asia is wealth of passengers willing to buy tickets and there is a real shortage of qualified pilots over there to fly them. More traffic, no one to fly them=more jobs for qualified American pilots in this case.

But I shouldn't have to commute.
 

seefive

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While I totally oppose this from happening, for a Japanese airline to be able to do it, even in a limited way, would actually be kind of fair since United and NW/Delta have been using NRT as a hub for quite a while and also do connections out of Nagoya and Osaka. I don't think they are allowed to do domestic flights within Japan, but they most definitely have their foot in the door over there in a way that pretty much all foreign carriers would love to do in America. I have no idea why Japan lets them do it, but I sure hope America never reciprocates.

Some on here don't understand the definition of Cabotage.
 

Dumb Pilot

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I didn't say industrialized, I should have said South American labor.

Some of those carriers top out at $60,000 for a bus CA.

$30,000 in Brazil or Guatemala and you live like a king.

Imagine a few folks from south of the border crossing on a commute to start their three day out of DFW, DET, you get the picture, and same time zone!!

No YOU don't get the picture, there aren't enough pilots in the entire country of Guatemala to crew a small regional carrier here in the US, and I would suggest that you check the salary levels and the cost of living in South America again because you couldn't be more wrong about both your statements.
 
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