Cabotage

[Dumb Pilot]

Min wage is the main reason-U.S. flagged vessels have to comply with U.S. wage and labor rules-you can pay the folks from many countries around the world what you think you can get away with-same could happen to airlines.

Another brilliant post from somebody that hasn't even taken the time to find out what is the actual salary level of commercial mariners around the world, it is because of the tax burden that we put to businesses here in the states that commercial shipping has gone abroad not because of minimum wage, 30 to 40 k per year that a junior seaman makes is hardly minimum wage, I can think of a lot of folks right now that would love to be making that kind of money and have the medical benefits that they have

 

[freight dork]

It never ceases to amaze me how naive Americans are about the rest of the world. The ATR FO's I fly with in India think that I'm joking when I tell them what a regional pilot makes in the US. The Indian FO's on local/permanent contracts make $4000 USD per month and most will make it into the left seat (if they should be there or not) upon reaching 2000 hours. I personally left the US airline industry because I was sick of low pay/terrible flight duty limits/lack of job advancement/etc/etc........ I make almost three times my US ATR salary working in India where, BTW, the cost of living is very very low. Believe me, American pilots are among the lowest paid, although most experienced, pilots in the world. I never worry about pilots from other countries coming and undercutting us in the the US market as they can easily make more money and have a better quality of life in their native country. I only wish that American pilots would wake up to the reality of how low the US airline industry has sunk and do something to remedy the problem because I would like to come home and work in the US again someday. Until the situation doe improve in the US I will remain overseas, as long as possible, where I am compensated fairly for the services I provide.

 

[QCappy]

Sooner than we think?

Open Skies agreements are not cabatoge. Cabatoge is when a foreign carrier flies point-to-point within the US and sells tickets between those two points. Open Skies agreement just allow carriers from the respective countries to fly from any two points between those countires without limits.

 

[pipejockey]

No kidding, when are we going to understand that we are the lowest paid pilots of all the industrialized nations

I disagree. Yes, the foreign pilots are living high on the hog in their own countries, well above that of their average citizen. But when you adjust their salary to the US Dollar, you'll see we earn much more I fear. I am sure an Air India pilot would not even be paid 100 grand in US currency. If someone can prove me wrong, I would feel much better.

I posted my first paragraph before finishing the thread. FreightDork, can you find out how much an Air India Pilot earns both as FO and CA?

 

[freight dork]

I posted my first paragraph before finishing the thread. FreightDork, can you find out how much an Air India Pilot earns both as FO and CA?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what Air India pilots earn but it is definitely as much as a major airline pilot in the US, also being a gov't carrier there is great job security and job advancement.

Recently I was talking with a local ATR captain where I work and he was making around 4 lahk/month (approx $8200 usd) with a bit of overtime. The ATR fo's I fly with make 1.8 lahk (approx $4000 usd) per month. Which is about what I was making as an ATR captain in the US. As an expat ATR capt I clear $10,000 usd after indian taxes (33%) but this job is very unstable and I assume I'll be laid off very soon.

The buying power of these salaries is incredible in India. The 21 year old kids with no college degree that I work with make more than a doctor or dentist here in India. My girlfriend and I live very well on under $1500 usd per month.

Both Air India and Jet Airways pilots have had "successful" strikes within the past two months. I often make fun of the Indian pilots lack of flying skills but I will never mock their unity in upholding the status of the profession here.

 

[Dornier 335]

Dumb Pilot and Freight Dork, please don't do those ignorant idiots a favor and tell them about the aviation life outside the US. If they wanna stay inside their little box, let them. Taking a contract job was the best choice I ever made.

 

[Dornier 335]

(double-post)

 

[Lear70]

I disagree. Yes, the foreign pilots are living high on the hog in their own countries, well above that of their average citizen. But when you adjust their salary to the US Dollar, you'll see we earn much more I fear. I am sure an Air India pilot would not even be paid 100 grand in US currency. If someone can prove me wrong, I would feel much better.

I spent the entire month of October last year flying in Italy. I stayed in a hotel that was OK, considered quite nice by local standards, but it also had two rooms that were crashpads for Al Italia pilots and a couple young guys (20-22) were in F/O training.

They will make about $48k U.S. coming out of training and second year jumps to $80k U.S. The only thing that's expensive over there, for the most part, is housing, but at 20-22 years old, living at home or having a crash pad is perfectly acceptable.

Here in the U.S., as you are well aware, the 20-22 year olds are coming out of school and going into a regional for $16k-20k a year with a housing cost less than 1/3 of what it costs in Europe.

When I was looking at taking the Air Japan job two years ago, the pay was $10,500 a month U.S. on a commuting contract as a 767 Captain. $7,500 a month as an F/O. On 1st year pay. Higher if you didn't commute and took that in cash.

Funny thing is, the Air Japan pilots who ARE FROM JAPAN flying for JAL are very, very pi$$ed off that the ex-pats are taking the job for so little. Their pair is 50% HIGHER than the ex-pats are getting paid (yes, I know this for fact). As such, you will mix with the JAL pilots as you come and go at work, and they will never snub you directly (that's considered rude), but you'll never be one of them as far as they're concerned, as any RESPECTABLE aviator, by their standards, wouldn't undercut another pilot by taking a job more cheaply.

Yes, many jobs (especially those appearing lately) are lower than I'd accept to go expat (only $6,000 or so a month and you can't commute), but they'll come back up when the supply dries up.

We really are our own worst enemy in this country. If I wasn't divorced with a son, and wasn't certain about my AirTran grievance, I'd be seriously re-considering the expat world.

 

[Flyby1206]

The US pumps out fresh pilots faster and cheaper than the rest of the world combined. Hell, many countries send their pilot candidates to the US for fundamental training. I am not afraid of Guatemalans taking over the airline industry. When I start reading stories in the newspaper about Chinese regional pilots making $16k/yr and commuting across the globe then I will start to worry.

The US has many desirable industries that attract foreign talent, but aviation is not close to being in that same league.

 

[waka]

Another brilliant post from somebody that hasn't even taken the time to find out what is the actual salary level of commercial mariners around the world, it is because of the tax burden that we put to businesses here in the states that commercial shipping has gone abroad not because of minimum wage, 30 to 40 k per year that a junior seaman makes is hardly minimum wage, I can think of a lot of folks right now that would love to be making that kind of money and have the medical benefits that they have

I don't like to defend CRJ567 but, a junior seaman is not the lowest on a cruise ship's totem pole. Someone has to clean the toilets.

 

[pipejockey]

Thank you freightdork and lear70 for that stunning info. I had no idea. I had always thought these foreign pilots albeit living well in their own countries, couldn't come close to earning enough to live in the US comparable to what someone who earns 6 figures can. But it appears they can, and then some. They must be living the kinda life in their respective countries much like our guys did here back in the 70's. Well, it's nice to know that it appears it's only the US pilots that bend over and say, "thank you masa (Mgmt) have your way with me".

 

[crj567]

Another brilliant post from somebody that hasn't even taken the time to find out what is the actual salary level of commercial mariners around the world, it is because of the tax burden that we put to businesses here in the states that commercial shipping has gone abroad not because of minimum wage, 30 to 40 k per year that a junior seaman makes is hardly minimum wage, I can think of a lot of folks right now that would love to be making that kind of money and have the medical benefits that they have

Yep-

Someone who has not actually taken the time to check this out:
http://www.cruisestaff.com.au/i.cfm/13/

-Skip right down to the parts where these people work 70 hours a week-7days a week. All for the princely starting sum of $1000 weekly. My points about labor laws and min wage stand validated.

Maybe you should go and become a "junior seaman" if you think it is so easy and fun to work 10 hour shifts, 7 days each week. Or get that toilet plunger out if you really want to keep yourself honest.

The point is: Exactly the same deterioration in pay and work rules is sure to happen at U.S. airlines if cabotage occurs. Don't fool yourself into thinking that any airline manage doesn't wet his pants at the thought of being able to crew 767s with people making $20k per year.

Every single executive at every single U.S. carrier has been working on cabotage for ages. You are smoking crack if you think they wouldn't do this in a heartbeat if given the chance.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Nice try, it took you several days to dig the information that suited your needs but try finding out how much the commercial mariners make not the floating hotels since that is a very small portion of the industry. And about me becoming a junior seaman, I almost did actually since several of my family members are in the business as captains on container ships and oil tankers my knowledge from the industry is from the inside.You really think that an industry that operates with ships that cost hundreds of millions and carries cargo worth half a billion in every shipment left the US because the deck hands pay difference between $6 vs $10 vs $8 ?, your point about the industry leaving to be able to pay below minimum wage is not validated, it is stupid. You are no longer drinking the koolaid from management telling you that your cost is the reason the airline industry makes no money, you are liquefying it with a lighter and injecting it into your veins. When are we going to understand as pilots that we are not easily substitutable, do you really believe that you can get uneducated individuals and train them as pilots just like you can train someone to unclog a toilet? YOUR skills and YOUR experience is not that easily substitutable and specially our numbers since in the states we are over half the pilots on the planet.
This notion that if you open the floodgates every pilot from South America will come to the US to work is pretty ridiculous, you guys are completely lost in terms of how much the pilots in non industrialized nations are making, 20 K a year my foot. somebody explain to me how can other carriers pay their pilots well and still be profitable and stop talking idiocy and comparing yourself with the skills and education level of a toilet plunger. How can a POS LLC like Ryanair pay their captains over a quarter of a million dollars and still be profitable in the worst economical downturn since the great depression and you get profitable airlines here in the states still intimidating their pilots into taking hits or the they will drop the "F" bomb, give me a break, the only thing I see easily substitutable is management and their ineptitude.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Cargo cabotage is, unfortunately, already here thanks to Ted "the felon" Stevens.