CA certificate suspension - Pittsburgh Jetstream 41

[igneousy2]

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/5241.PDF

Anyone know any other details about this? Airline? ALPA?

WTF!

Seems to me the NTSB missed the boat on this one. Leave it to these FAA idiots to associate ACCELERATION ALTITUDE with turning. His biggest screw up seems to be that he didn't fill out a form when he got back to his base.

Later

 

[johndt]

The FAA got it right. Move on.

 

[Golden Falcon]

if he had informed atc the reason he deviated from his clearance, and done the paperwork nothing would have happened to him...the job's never finished 'til the paperwork is done

 

[waterski]

Nothing to see here.

 

[Tarzan]

Sounds like he caught scewing around.

 

[dav8or]

"Well that should cover the fly bys"

 

[MATHEWS]

This was a former Waterskier. Rumor has it, he screwed up big time and was "having fun or showing off." I was involved in a conversation with the three FAA officials that witnessed the event. I ran into them in the PIT foodcourt and they seemed determined to make sure this man was punished to the fullest extent. They said he nearly hit the top of the Hilton hotel located between 28R and 28C.

PS Don't kill the messenger, just what I was told. Sounds moronic either way. No need to make a 90 degree turn at lift off.

Also, just something to think about. These guys said they watched it out of the window of the concourse. You never know who is watching your every move!

 

[ttuite]

Seems to me the NTSB missed the boat on this one. Leave it to these FAA idiots to associate ACCELERATION ALTITUDE with turning. His biggest screw up seems to be that he didn't fill out a form when he got back to his base.

[/quote]

He made the turn at 96ft AGL? That was smart.

 

[Oneflap]

FAA got is right on. If the captain would have fallowed the procedure or notifed ATC of the deviation nothing would have happend. We have rules to help save lives and there is no room for Hot Dogs....Good job FAA

 

[rjacobs]

Well, if he did violate the DP(sounds like he did), never told any body why, never filled out any paperwork to that extent, than he should have been violated. However turning before accel height is kind of a dumb argument. At my airline we are allowed, in VMC conditions and as long as it is safe, to make turns at 100 feet AGL which is well below our 500 ft. standard accel height. So just because he turned below accel height has nothing to do with him getting violated, in my opinion.

 

[Soverytired]

"Well that should cover the fly bys"

ROLF!

 

[~~~^~~~]

The whole thing doesn't make sense. Why start a turn at 96 feet? I'm sure the Jetstream used less runway than the 737. Would a headwind blow the wake back enough to be a factor?

We have never had a problem getting off procedure vectors, or a clearance to deviate, from a wake. At the same time, we have never had to deviate more than 5 or 10 to avoid the problem. Miss the 727's, you knew where the wake was from all the smoke....

 

[shamrock]

Also, just something to think about. These guys said they watched it out of the window of the concourse. You never know who is watching your every move!

Reminds me of the (empty) Commutair flight that did a soft field special (ground effect down the runway with a sharp pull up at the end) in Albany NY, coincidentally the home of a FSDO and Commutair's POI.

I don't think the FO announcing "Watch this!" on tower freq helped matter much either.

 

[igneousy2]

I guess the report doesn't make it clear "how much" he deviated. We all have cheated 5 left or right without filling out a report at the end of the 4 day...if we even remember at the end of the 4 day. If he did turn 90 degrees trying to buzz the terminal then I support what the FAA did...however, the report seems to make a big deal about the turn below acceleration.

 

[embpic1]

When I flew at Great Lakes we would occasionally get a clearance for an immediate right turn after t/o on 17R in DEN. So at 100 feet we would start our turn and it would take us right over the top of the DEN FSDO office. I always wondered if the feds investigated our turns but found out that we were following an amended clearance.

 

[acaTerry]

96 feet? Sounds like Shiny Prop Syndrome.

 

[acaTerry]

bump...for the heck of it

 

[737 Pylt]

The whole thing doesn't make sense. Why start a turn at 96 feet?

The only airport where this becomes an issue that I know of is SXM.
Not PIT.

737

 

[pilotbrain]

Well, if he did violate the DP(sounds like he did), never told any body why, never filled out any paperwork to that extent, than he should have been violated. However turning before accel height is kind of a dumb argument. At my airline we are allowed, in VMC conditions and as long as it is safe, to make turns at 100 feet AGL which is well below our 500 ft. standard accel height. So just because he turned below accel height has nothing to do with him getting violated, in my opinion.

Oh I get it....v1, vr....rotate.....positive rate...gear up....100 ft....heading mode....

Make sense to me.

 

[CA1900]

Reminds me of the (empty) Commutair flight that did a soft field special (ground effect down the runway with a sharp pull up at the end) in Albany NY, coincidentally the home of a FSDO and Commutair's POI.

I don't think the FO announcing "Watch this!" on tower freq helped matter much either.

Oh, what a moron... The FO on that (the "watch this" on the radio) was the same guy who, when taxiing to the ramp in BOS, I asked him what gate we were going to. I got no answer, so I look over, and his headset's around his neck and he's on his cellphone talking to his girlfriend!

I slapped the phone out of his hand so hard the battery popped out when it hit the floor. We had a little chat when we got to the gate, to say the least. :angryfire

Nice enough guy, but drove me crazy.

 

[suupah]

if the tower gives you this clearance "turn 210 cleard for take off 28R" do you still have to wait till 1700 feet before making your turn?

i think YES but some say NO

 

[BoilerUP]

Its all spelled out on the PIT 7 plate...climb to 1700 then turn on course.

 

[35off]

nothing to discuss here

FAA was on the money. Cpt was hot dogging. If you had met him and knew him you would wonder why it had not happened before or how he managed to keep a job at an airline.

Nothing else to discuss. This is history long ago.

 

[suupah]

Its all spelled out on the PIT 7 plate...climb to 1700 then turn on course.

I agree

 

[trainer8]

Well, if he did violate the DP(sounds like he did), never told any body why, never filled out any paperwork to that extent, than he should have been violated. However turning before accel height is kind of a dumb argument. At my airline we are allowed, in VMC conditions and as long as it is safe, to make turns at 100 feet AGL which is well below our 500 ft. standard accel height. So just because he turned below accel height has nothing to do with him getting violated, in my opinion.

It does if he deviated from the Pitt 6 departure procedure on the SID. It's very specific.

T8

 

[trainer8]

if the tower gives you this clearance "turn 210 cleard for take off 28R" do you still have to wait till 1700 feet before making your turn?

i think YES but some say NO

Local Control's clearance supercedes the SID from Clearance Delivery. The Pitt 6 SID is based on TERPS. It gives lateral clearance from all obstacles based on the stated altitude (1700') which is about 400' above FE at PIT.

That said, however, in the above clearance, you may make the turn below the published altitude if ATC gives you the heading, but if you bag an engine in the process, you risk not meeting climb gradients designed to keep you safe from hitting obstacles. I've heard PIT Tower give a Dash-8 a "turn to a heading of 360 as soon as speed and altitude permit." That is a legal ATC clearance. It is the PIC's responsibility to do that manuver safely.

T8

 

[rjacobs]

OK, I take back what I said, well not really, but will modify it. Didnt even think about looking at the DP for PIT, we will not deviate from a DP, but with no DP we can turn as soon as 100 ft in VMC. The original post had nothing it about a DP so it didnt cross my mind.

 

[j41driver]

if the tower gives you this clearance "turn 210 cleard for take off 28R" do you still have to wait till 1700 feet before making your turn?

i think YES but some say NO

If you don't wait until 1700' you could come way too close to the Airport Hyatt. Climb to 1700' then make your turn on course.

 

[AutoBus]

Oh, what a moron... The FO on that (the "watch this" on the radio) was the same guy who, when taxiing to the ramp in BOS, I asked him what gate we were going to. I got no answer, so I look over, and his headset's around his neck and he's on his cellphone talking to his girlfriend!

I slapped the phone out of his hand so hard the battery popped out when it hit the floor. We had a little chat when we got to the gate, to say the least. :angryfire

Nice enough guy, but drove me crazy.

Maybe it's the same 'smart young fella' who used to land halfway down the runway on 28 alb to make the last turn off into the gate, or not let his FO's use any flaps because of wear and tear on the system, or not use landing lights at night to save money, or land with 100 pounds per side so he can save 2 cents a gallon of gas, or depart vfr to bos during a ground stop and hang around the outside of the class-b making a pest of himself until atc finally lets him in.

 

[BigMeat]

Reminds me of the (empty) Commutair flight that did a soft field special (ground effect down the runway with a sharp pull up at the end) in Albany NY, coincidentally the home of a FSDO and Commutair's POI.

I don't think the FO announcing "Watch this!" on tower freq helped matter much either.

Ahh yes!! The good ole days at CommutAir. I remember that. Lotsa memories. Im glad thats all they found out about. Empty airplanes (which at that time was very common) was a chance for us to hone our flying skills. You got giddy knowing that your next flight was empty. Nobody had to say anything, you just knew something special was going to happen!