C17 Totalled in Bagram

[TonyC]

Well, Tony, you list KC-135 in your profile. I assume you had DOs. Hell, maybe you were the DO.

Once again, your observation skills fail you. While KC-125A is listed under aircraft experience, it doesn't mean I was ever in a KC-135 squadron. I wasn't in a EC-135 squadron either, though I've flown 'em. Whether I was in any squadron wasn't your point, though, as you sought to belittle a tanker toad with your "I guess Ops Os in the tanker world weren't all that hot" comment.

Cheap shot.

Further, I know for a fact Deuce130 spent many, many months and hours in the AOR over the past 4 years.

Time in the AOR does not equate to experience with 22-24 hour duty days. Any comment he can offer on the subject, unless he has experienced it, is just conjecture. Oops, sorry to use such a big word. What I mean is, unless he's done it, he's just guessing. Hey, look back there, he said "bet" - - he WAS guessing!

Still, it was a nice semantics rant. You spent 4 paragraphs saying jacks***.

Sorry that I spoke above your grade level.

Lemme guess, you have a huge watch, too.





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[stonewall]

Nope, no big watch. Silly me for assuming since you flew KC-135s you were actually in a KC-135 squadron. Guess you weren't in a T-37 or T-38 squadron either. You must be one o' them test pilots. RC-135 squadron? Any squadron? At any rate, I'll assume you had bad experiences with Ops Os.

Maybe Duece doesn't have 22 hour days, maybe he does. Or maybe he was deployed so close to the front lines he didn't have the opportunity to go back to Ramstein and drink German beer and then bitch about not getting crew rest. I can't comment either way.

Still, your 4 previous paragraphs, while not above grade level, still didn't say jacks***.

 

[TonyC]

Further, Tony, if you spent less time posting on flighinfo you might be more well rested and less chronically fatigued.

While I'll take your suggestion under advisement, I assure you I am well rested and quite fresh. Thanks for your concern!

At any rate, I'll assume you had bad experiences with Ops Os.

Good ones, and bad ones. None of them "offered me" a sortie. They were always assigned.

Maybe Duece doesn't have 22 hour days, maybe he does. Or maybe he was deployed so close to the front lines he didn't have the opportunity to go back to Ramstein and drink German beer and then bitch about not getting crew rest. I can't comment either way.

Ahhh, but you DID comment, didn't you? You were quick to flame me when I disagreed with your attack on the crew, and you were quick to flame me for pointing out the discrepancy in Deuce130's post.

Still, your 4 previous paragraphs, while not above grade level, still didn't say jacks***.

Well, if you didn't understand it, I suppose I should pat you on the back for responding with a tanker remark. I'm convinced you were trained to do that, and you were just responding as you've been trained. Good job!


See ya at the popcorn machine!



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[Phrogboy]

To get back to the point at hand, when did "Suck it up" ever make for efficient, safe flying.

RF you are right on with the 16 hr basic day needing to become the norm again. TACC is way to quick to label a crew with an augmented day anymore. Unfortunately I do not see this ending anytime soon with the current situations or management. There has got to be a better way of doing business however, as if this does keep up there are going to be long term ramifications (ie AD/Res retention, mishaps, etc.). Magnum, come on man, surely you are not that ignorant to see this....

We all accept hardships as a fact of life, but we also know that the logic behind the powers that be (especially at TACC) seems to be a little askew sometimes when it comes to the actual day to day missions. That is where the AC can step in, and tries to most of the time, only to get crushed. I have seen it to many times now and I have only been in the C-5 world for less than 2 years (on both sides of the stage managers desk).

 

[pkober]

If you don't like 24 hour days, switch airframes. In C-17's and C-5's it's a fact of life. You get the new shinny airframe with the s+_t schedule. My trade off is shorter days but longer deployments in tents with camel spiders. That's life.

If you don't think some commanders are only interested in getting promoted than you need to look at how many bronze stars have been awarded to Air Force commanders. Some of these guys never once flew into comabt and were still getting BS's while being deoployed miles from Iraq. I read one BS write up which included the phrase "while engaged in ground combat operations against the emeny ...". This person was based 600 miles from Iraq. Not all commanders are guilty of that but enough are. Nuff said.

In the end, if you can't fly due to fatigue than throw the flag. I've done it before and I'll do it again if needed. My life and my crew's life is far more important than anything anyone can say.

CLAMBAKE

 

[RampFreeze]

I wouldn't call the 1969 vintage C-5s with their 65% reliability rate "shinny" but whatever... I think there is a safer way of doing business with respect to duty days and still moving the mission. Nuff said.

I couldn't agree with you more with respect to awards and decorations. Now, there are some very deserving individuals of Bronze Stars, DFCs, Air Medals, etc. However, I have a very difficult time with the way the combat awards are getting doled out freely (and have been for the past 10 years or so). Do you think the B-1 crew that "bombed" Sadaam Hussein really deserved a DFC for popping off the tanker quickly and dropping a bomb in minimum time? (vs. any other crew that bombed a lower priority target in the same way (oh, and by the way, I don't think they got Sadaam...) My wife's grandfather was a B-17 pilot over Europe in WWII. He stayed on Active Duty until 1947 and then remained in the reserves until retirement as a Lt Col . When he retired, guess what the highest decoration on is service dress was - an Air Medal for flying 35 missions over Europe in his B-17. (He didn't want/get a purple heart for the shrapnel that is still in his leg - he said that Purple Hearts were for the guys who really got wounded badly...) Bottom Line: You simply can't compare the Air Medal that he wore with the ones handed out today (for example, the Air Medals given to tanker guys who just happen to fly their orbit over one line on a map when there isn't a significant threat, in the same airspace that is transited by Commerical Airliners...) It's too bad because some of the guys wearing/getting those decorations really deserve them for truly heroic actions, unfortunately the whole system has now been devalued.

Have we taken the original thread off of its intent far enough yet?

 

[pkober]

I'll give you that one about the C-5.

BTW, a bomb loading crew got BS at Whittman for loading bombs on B-2's. I don't know if it was classified as "direct combat" operations or "direct go home at night and sleep in your own bed" operations.

What was the original thread about?

CLAMBAKE

 

[PHX767]

A Bronze Star for loading bombs in the CONUS??

BTW, a bomb loading crew got BS at Whittman for loading bombs on B-2's. I don't know if it was classified as "direct combat" operations or "direct go home at night and sleep in your own bed" operations.

CLAMBAKE

YGBSM!!

The awards and decs must have gotten waaaayyy out of hand since I retired. Then again, I did once get an AF Commendation Medal for being on the flying schedule, flying KGUS - KGUS and refueling a B-52. Bright Star in '80, '82 something like that.

Back to the thread:
Guys, are there no more middle managers in the field? We used to have Tanker Task Forces at the bigger bases, and detachments at the smaller, like Riyadh, Jedda, etc. Usually at least a major and a Senior NCO. When we got taken over by AMC a lot of us got sent to garden spots like Somalia to be the supervision on the gound and help the crews that transited the field. We helped a lot of crews with duty day and fatigue problems.

 

[Deuce130]

Tony C - you let your command of the English language get in the way of understanding it. True, I have never flown a 22 or 24 hour duty day. I have, however, flown several 18 hour days without augmentation. The reason I've never done a 22 hour day is that I was flying out of FOBs that were a JDAM toss from the FEBA, so I didn't have the opportunity to fly at FL 330 for eight hours there and 8 hours back with the autopilot on. Thirty min after gear up we were in country with only a dirty tent or hangar with a cot to go back to at the end of our duty day. I won't bore you with the rest of the details as there are plenty of dudes out there who know what was done and where it was done at. You could easily have taken me at my word, however, that I had been there and done that. Most everyone out there has been involved in some way or other with OEF/OIF so I don't think credibility should be a problem. I'm sorry that became an issue.

I was half expecting some stud strat air pilot to make a post that halfway made sense and at least offered up possible solutions. Instead, most of it is simple hyperbole and bitching. But then, I began to think that most of the stud strat air pilots are probably not reading or posting on flightinfo.com, they're out hacking the mission, coming up with ideas to make the situation better, or getting some rack time. I didn't even hear about this stupid website until I got out. Damn you, flightinfo.com, damn you for taking up so much of my time!

Lastly, I can only speak for myself, but I've had outstanding leaders. A very small minority could be described as "careerists" or insensitive to the plights of the crews. The vast majority have been professional, dedicated, safe aviators who lead by example. And yes, the awards and decs thing has gotten WAAAY out of hand. The bar has been lowered and probably will never get raised again. I know it, Bob Dole knows it, and everyone else knows. it.

 

[pkober]

My bad, the BS's at Whiteman were for Kosovo.

Associated Press, June 29 2000
Kosovo Bronze Stars Reaffirmed

By ROBERT BURNS

AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Pentagon has reaffirmed the awarding of Bronze Star medals to service members who participated in the air campaign against Yugoslavia last year but were not in the combat zone.

After a review prompted by articles in the military newspaper Stars and Stripes, Bernard Rostker, the under secretary of defense for personnel, found that the medals were properly awarded.

"We have determined that there was a precedent set for the awarding of the Bronze Star medal under similar conditions," Rostker wrote in letters Wednesday to the civilian chiefs of the Air Force and Navy.

Kenneth Bacon, spokesman for Defense Secretary William Cohen, said Thursday that Rostker´s review showed that U.S. servicemen stationed on Guam during the Vietnam War had been awarded Bronze Stars for their contributions to that war even though they were not in the combat zone.

A total of 321 Bronze Stars were awarded for the Kosovo air campaign.

The Stars and Stripes newspaper reported that a majority went to people who were not even in the Balkans. At least five Bronze Stars, for example, went to Air Force officers at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri, home of the B-2 bombers that flew roundtrip missions to the Balkans. None was for a pilot because the Defense Department criteria for awarding Bronze Stars specifically say the honors are not for "participation in aerial flight."

Stars and Stripes also said Bronze Stars were awarded to three colonels in Germany who worked on overflight clearances and basing rights in Europe for U.S. aircraft supporting the air campaign in Kosovo.

The Pentagon regulation on awarding Bronze Stars says they can be given to a military member who "distinguishes himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service" under any of three circumstances:

-"While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States."

-"While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force."

-While serving with friendly foreign forces in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

YGBSM!!
Back to the thread:
Guys, are there no more middle managers in the field? We used to have Tanker Task Forces at the bigger bases, and detachments at the smaller, like Riyadh, Jedda, etc. Usually at least a major and a Senior NCO. When we got taken over by AMC a lot of us got sent to garden spots like Somalia to be the supervision on the gound and help the crews that transited the field. We helped a lot of crews with duty day and fatigue problems.

PHX767, The stages are set up at Ramstein, Qatar, Incirlik, and Manas (Bishkek, Kyrgystan). There's an Expeditionary Airlift Squadron (EAS) deployed to manage all 4 stages. There have been other locations too, but they've either closed or were only temporary. One of the C-17 Sq's deploys most of its people and splits them up among the bases. The CC and DO and "staff" are currently at Incirlik. Ramstein and Manas are being run by a couple Capt's (last time I went thru). Qatar has a Maj & a couple Capts & Lts. Plus duty Loadmasters to assist in tail-swapping cargo and other duties.

Now, before I get flamed by every CGO out there, I have a lot of respect for the Capt's that are runnning the stages - several of them right now are friends of mine. I've done it myself. (Yes, in the truest "been there" sense of this thread) But they can't always get what they need from a local base leadership that considers them minor tenants. I question the EAS' decision to move the leadership to Incirlik from Germany, where there's only a few crews and where they're out of touch with the larger ops locations.

When something bad goes down at an AOR location, like this incident in Bagram, we're supposed to call the EAS and our home squadron. The EAS is responsible for ops tasking and "care and feeding," but no sitting Sq CC is going to lay it on the line for a crew from a different Sq. The home unit is out of the loop, and while they still own us they can call TACC and the EAS on our behalf all day long and get stiff armed with no recourse. In the end, no one looks out for you except yourself.

Now, Deuce130 wanted solutions. Get rid of the EAS. Deploy stage manager and Tactics briefer teams IAW strat airlift doctrine. Task Stage leadership to be FGO's, no lower. This takes the politics of deployed Sq CC's out. It also decreases the deployment size, cause right now they're deploying among other things Sq Execs to process medals for the EAS staff itself (but not the crews). More solution: fly more channel (keeper) missions vice stages. Apparently, this is just starting to happen, hopefully it'll increase to obviate the need for an EAS at all. Lastly, go back to the way the AF sold the C-17 to Congress - the basic 3-man crew. This would decrease fatigue by putting us back on 16 hr days. And that would probably go a long way to decreasing the number of incidents like this we have, one way or another.

 

[Phrogboy]

Can I get an AMEN brothers...

Kikuchiyo hit the nail on the head. Channel missions is the preferalble answer and one that is probably viable with the current situation worldwide.

 

[Mamma]

I have to agree with it being a bad decision for the leadership to be holed up in Incirlik. They should be posted in Germany (the gateway where all crews enter the AOR). This way crews would see who the leadership is and the tone can be set for the next few weeks. Instead they sit in Turkey and babysit the Jackson guys and remain far removed from the rest of us. But alas, I am not king for a day.

 

[pkober]

Mamma,

Explain "babysit the Jackson guys".

 

[Flt 525]

What's a channel mission?

Please help an Army dude: what is a channel mission? By the way, not to make anyone mad, but after retirement I have worked as a contractor in the middle east. USAF personnel come to the site where I am/was and stay for only 90 days. It takes 30 days to train them and 30 days for them to process out and (yes, for real) get their Expeditionary Force medal(s). So we might get 30 days of "real" work out of them. I think a minimum of 6 months should be the norm. Just a gripe from an Army dude.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

pkober: The Jackson, MS, 172nd Airlift Wing finally got their C-17s, completing the transition from C-141s. Rather than get activated, they cut a deal with AMC to "help out" with airlift, while remaining unactivated Guard volunteers.

Part of the deal is that only they will fly their unit-assigned airplanes. This is different than how AMC normally operates a strategic airlift stage, by whichever crew is available flying whichever plane comes thru on the next mission. CHS crews fly McChord and McGuire plans regularly, and vice versa. In order to simplify the scheduling of them with their own airplanes, they go straight to Incirlik to operate from there for their full rotation, then straight home to swap out crews. I don't know how long they stay out (normal strat crews are on 2-week orders) as that too may have been part of the deal.

At Incirlik, crews get per diem and stay in normal billeting, versus the stages at Manas and Qatar where they're on field conditions. While many of the AD and Resv crews that keep going out to the stage (and have been for 4 years) would love to go to the 'Lik, the Jackson guys are filling most of the crew requirements there, so very few other crews get to. It's a sore subject in the C-17 community and is breeding very bad feelings for Jackson from everyone else.

Of course, if one wants to get hired there later, one does not speak ill of their ability to cut such a deal with AMC...

 

[Kikuchiyo]

Flt525:
I used the term channel missions in a not-technically correct way. I'm sure I'll get critiqued (in a friendly was, as is the manner of flightinfo...). I meant it to mean where a crew keeps the jet and doesn't hand it off to the next waiting crew, pony-express style.

 

[pkober]

Of course, if one wants to get hired there later, one does not speak ill of their ability to cut such a deal with AMC...

Excellent point.

No self respecting ANG unit would ever give up there airplanes. That's statement is an inside joke......

If the ANG is able to work that deal, than good on them. I certainly don't think they need to be babysat. I don't know any one in that unit but I can say with certainty that no ANG unit ever needs to be babysat.

We had the reverse happen to us during the war. All the AD left and all the slick Herc's in theater were ANG/AFRC. That has caused bad feelings to this day.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE

 

[Mamma]

Pkober,
I am sorry you took offense to the "babysit" comment. It was not meant to be derogatory. Jackson just came up on line with C-17s and were not combat tested as a unit. That leaves it to active duty and reserves to show them the ropes...hence "babysit"...if only for a short time. The deal they cut in the "lik" while impressive has caused a lot of animosity. I wish my Reserve bosses could have cut that deal, but not being from the land of Trent Lott, we could not. When my unit first flew over in Afghanistan and Iraq, we needed to be babysat for a little while while we learned the ropes and I am not ashamed to admit it. A bunch of airline folks with tons of hours but little time in the airframe and environment could lead to disaster if not shown the ropes the right way.
Now you, Pkober, on the other hand....I find it confusing that you can make the assertation that "I am certain no ANG unit needs to be babysat" while at the same time making the statement "I don't know anyone in that unit." It's nice to root for the home team, but you should once in awhile know who they are playing against. Thanks for coming out.

 

[pkober]

I don't have to know anyone in that unit to know that they don't need there hands held. If you're a reservist you don't need your hand held either. Helpful advice is always appreciated.

My last ,and forth, deployment to Iraq we had the wing commander speak to us. He is an AD Zoomie type O-6. He sat down in front of us and said " I know all you Guard guys have multiple tours under your belt, but it doesn't matter. Get with the active duty they know what's going on." Yeah, thanks Guy. You worry about disco belts and we'll worry about getting the mission done. The AD guys we were to get all the info from had never been in theater. Classic lack of understanding.

I hope your last comments about not knowing who we are playing against isn't implying I need to spend some time playing in the sandbox.

Stay safe

CLAMBAKE