C17 Totalled in Bagram

[RAC396]

My only hope is that management will see this as a wakeup call and make some improvements in how we are doing business, getting crews better rest, better support, and not pushing them to the limits now that we are a few years into this.[/QUOTE]

I pray your hope will happen,however as long as "Management" is trying to get promoted,the crew force will alway suffer.I felw C130s in Vietnam,and C141s in desert storm,and absolutely nothing has changed.Fly safe,and watch your SIX.

 

[PHX767]

An important point to remember is that civil flying does not have a "mission" as does mil aviation. If the crew is too fatigued, the wx is too cruddy, only 1/2 the runway is open then it is too risky. Not so in mil where somebody is depending on the load getting there, the gas passed, or the bombs on target.

Work rules and quality of life is why we all lament those contract concessions. It's not because we are wussies. No air medals for taking a chance with 200 of the traveling public in the back, or for having an onerous reserve policy.

To bring this back on target and info-only for the civilian-only guys who are curious:

One thing a lot of civilian guys may not realize is that the USAF max crew duty day for big airplanes (C-5, C-17, KC-10, KC-135, etc.) is 24 hours with one extra pilot.

And the civilian guys that you are enlightening would probably also like to know that the augmented USAF aircrews you are discussing can only fly the max duty day with an extra required crewmember for the equipment; i.e, an extra pilot, plus a loadmaster, flight engineer, boom operator as appropriate. Don't forget the little people!

 

[Kikuchiyo]

At the end of the Wing SE meeting here at CHS, the OG ripped into us for all the recent (mostly minor) incidents. He claimed that after some analysis, the incident crews were not too tired or too overworked. None of the incidents were at the end of the duty day, nor had the crews been flying loads of hours in their last 90 days.

Of course, there's a difference between tired and chronically fatigued. But the "leadership" will continue to push us until the next worse thing happens - losing a crew. Then they'll surely "wake up." Or not...

 

[Birdstrike]

We see the impacts of crews being stretched yet the numbers in the training pipelines are being reduced. What am I missing? What's the planning ratio used to resource crews to airframes? Whatever it is, seems like the problem could be solvable if there's a way to wangle more crews per airframe. If you open the pipeline...'believe they would come...and you'd get some relief. Ah, but personnel ceilings. Then let's reallocate some priorities...

 

[stonewall]

Management??

Is somebody trying to get rich off the backs of the workers? Do we need a union? Dude, as the AC, YOU are management. This isn't an airline you work at, even if it's part time. The "management" you complain about is different than the management at Delta...they have done what you have done.

If you're too tired to do the mission, pass it off to someone else. YOU are responsible for your crew, and don't hand me any bullsh** about "command pressure." There isn't anyone out there who can, with any intellectual honesty, claim the military forced them to fly when they were tired. You were offered the mission, and you ponied up. Good on ya...but when you taxi off the damn runway, don't bitch about it.

Look, I know it ain't easy and the pay sucks, but you don't do it for the pay. This isn't flame bait...but if you can't hack it, don't suit up.

 

[ultrarunner]

If you're too tired to do the mission, pass it off to someone else.This isn't flame bait...but if you can't hack it, don't suit up.

Or take the uppers they give you and press on!

Either way it sucks....

Especially when you gettin your A$$ waxed!

 

[stonewall]

Don't scoff the uppers....and it does suck either way. But there's a world of difference between "this sucks" and "this is unsafe."

 

[semperfido]

aren't these sort of mishaps an inherent risk in military flying?

 

[viper548]

aren't these sort of mishaps an inherent risk in military flying? and isn't the reason because they are deemed an acceptable risk while many times pushing the operational limits of man and machine to accomplish complex tasks?

It gets old when every duty day is 22-24 hours.

 

[TonyC]

You were offered the mission, and you ponied up.

It must be a different Air Force than the one in which I served. I was never "offered" a mission. I was assigned. Not DNIF? Go fly.


The management is no different? I think you're missing a part of the dynamic here. Your "manager" in this case may very well have flown the same airplane on the same missions under the same circumstances, but that's no longer their priority. Their priority is get the mission flown, or they don't get promoted. It's not their life on the line, just their future.

Yes, it's the AC's responsibility - - 100%. But don't try to minimalize the external pressures to get 'er done.



Fly SafeLY !





.

 

[stonewall]

I agree that external pressures are there..from your commander, from your crew, from your peers. However, you can't go fly the mission and then say you were fatigued after the fact if it goes to s***.

Further, I DO NOT agree that most senior military leaders care more about their careers than the lives of their men. Are there some? H*** yes. But they are few and far between, poeple know who they are, and they usually fail in their goals.

 

[dispatchguy]

Which unit is that C17 from? A good friend of mine is over in the sandbox now, on the C17 (he's an AC from McChord), and should be rotating back stateside on a 2 wk on, 2 wk off rotation this weekend.


I think...

 

[Kikuchiyo]

Or take the uppers they give you and press on!

No uppers for AMC, regardless of duty day length or tactical/AR activities.

The jet is assigned to CHS, that much was in the news. The crew's identities haven't been released.

 

[Flt 525]

I appreciate Airlifters

Rampfreeze - A well written sitrep of life for Airlifters. I have been a passenger on many USAF flights into very dangerous areas and places (from C-130 landings on two-lane roads in Saudi Arabia to spiraling in from 10,000 feet in Iraq). I always wanted to be a military flighter but eyesight problems kept me from my dream (Have you seen me imagining I am flying a C-130, C-5 while I am piloting the B-58 Baron? Please don't laugh at me! I even tried to get the owner to paint the plane USAF Grey!). But every flight I have made with Airlifters has been successful. The crews for the most part treat a "wanna-be" with respect and answer a lot of dumb questions and even let me sit in the seat!!! Have I seen any crews at "dog-tired" level? Plenty. Once, only the flight engineer was awake when I went up front. Senses and the body must be alert to pilot modern aircraft (I may be preaching to the choir). Not only is a lot of rest required, but "proper" rest is needed. USAF officials would do well to look into the problem of inadequate rest areas for crews. Thanks Airlifters for getting me there and back home safely. I have never had to call for close air support so Airlifters are close to my heart (but I thank the good Lord for you fast burner pilots, too). LTC JRA

 

[Deuce130]

As someone who has been there and done that, I have to agree with Magnum. Comparing our military leaders to management is apples and oranges. I also have to say that most of my leaders in the AF wanted us to fly the sorties in order to GET THE MISSION DONE AND WIN THE F$*$ING WAR, not get promoted. I also disagree that their focus is not on the safety and well being of the men and women in their squadron. If it isn't, then they have no business in a leadership position and will probably won't last very long. Yeah, we can all point to examples of poor leaders, but I'd bet that most of us have had a lot more good ones than bad ones along the way. It's easy to point to every accident and say the crew was overworked or overtired. It's more difficult to get away from knee jerk reactions and to actually get the facts to determine what really went wrong and what really happened.

I also bet that 22-24 hour crew days are a pain in the a**. But, there are rules in place to ensure everyone gets proper crew rest and we're all responsible to make sure that those rules get followed. If they're not being followed or they're being abused, speak up. If that doesn't work, then try something else or just plain suck it up.