C130 Crash Video

[XJAVRO]

I can tell you the problem this 130 had is one that the military has known about for a long time. The Marine Corps does wing Xrays inspections because of this. I'm sure the fact that they were flying old A models in hard conditions didn't help.

 

[inline]

Avweb,

Your stated in your post that an F.E. cannot wear a harness while performing his duties. That's news to me. I was an F.E. ( and F.O.) for H&P on 130,131 and 133HP. I always wore lap and shoulder harnesses.

 

[avbug]

That's quite a trick. How did you work the thrust levers during the drop or set them for takeoff? In order to lean far enough forward, one often needs to be almost completely out of the seat, or sitting on the very forward edge. It's necessary to do most of what the FE does, especially on the drops. I also occupied the FE seat from time to time (I took my FE turbopropeller practical test in T-130, in fact)...I was unable to perform those duties with a belt on.

No FE during my time there wore his belt because of the inability to properly perform the functions required. On our aircraft, the FE owned the airplane, the captain drove, and the copilot occasionally had a lucid thought. The FE did the bulk of the work. I'm not saying you didn't wear your seatbelt, but no other FE I worked with did, including the chief FE. The only FE I'm aware of in the company who did stay in place and strapped in was on the C-97G.

 

[F/O]

So the C-130 FE seat doesn't move on a track?????

Really????

 

[avbug]

Yes, the seat moves on a track. What does that have to do with anything? In order to sit in the seat, it must be moved back far enough to get the legs between the seat and pedestle. The FE sits at the rear of the pedestle. In order to reach everything he must reach, he must almost lay down along the pedestle for the thrust levers, and has a good reach for most of the forward switches, too. Perhaps long bodied folks can reach everything, but even with the lap belt fully extended, I couldn't reach everything and still keep the belt around me.

Xjarvo,

These airplanes get full NDI wing inspections at least twice a year.

 

[publisher]

thanks Avweb

Thanks Avweb for your usual insight.

The fact is that many aircraft end up doing something not quite what they were designed for. Fire Tankers are subject to stresses well beyond the average bear.

Along the way, I have been fortunate to meet many of the Avbug types. At Evergreen, they were all over the place. Later in Africa and around SAT, even more.

They were around at Air America and CAT, the flew in the Flying Tigers. They were pilots.

Part of my views expressed on these boards that are taken to be anti airline pilots merely reflect the fact that these are the people I admired. Most of my friends who fly in the airlines are concerned with everything in the world except flying. To these people, that is all they thought about.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>thanks Avweb

Who is this? Do you mean Avbug?

 

[F/O]

Yes, the seat moves on a track. What does that have to do with anything?

Avbug

The reason I asked the question is that on all of the large jet aircraft on which I've trained, crewed, or jumpseated, the engineer is able to move his seat either electrically or manually into a close in, forward facing position behind the console from which he can operate the throttles with both his lap belt and shoulder straps on. For whatever reason, it appears this is not the case on the Hercs you've flown. This seems unusual to me.

 

[LR25]

DC-8's

I work on DC-8's and I know of some FE's that have to pull the shoulder harness to the sides or disconnect them to adjust power levers when they are advanced. And those seats move in 8 different directions.

LR25

 

[Mr Freeze]

Is it possible that an internal explosion had taken place?
An electrical short of some kind; an ignition source in that area of the wing igniting the fuel that caused the wings to come flying off seconds apart from each other. Looking at the tape, when the wings fail, you notice a trail of fire streaming back from the root area.

 

[avbug]

Mr. Freeze,

That would be a good guess, but what you're seeing in the video is the fuel manifold rupturing. The fire in the video is insignificant, and isn't the cause of the separation.

It's a valid assumption, however, in that we thought that was what happened to T82 years ago. It had been flying straight and level on a load and return, empty, south of Palmdale, CA. Whitnesses saw an explosion, followed by a couple of secondaries, and the wings separated.

At the time, and what has been taught in groundschools since then, was that a wire short from a fuel quantity indicator caused an explosion in a drybay (interior service area in the wing between tanks). It was believed that the circuit breaker had popped, and that the FE reset it. It was believed that it popped again, and that the FE reset it again, triggering the explosion.

Some validity to this belief was provided because this happened to several of the same type, on the ground over the years, and personal accounts verified the cause. However, in the case of T82, no such verification was available, because like T130, everyone who could verify the problem was dead.

Only in the past few years has the information applicable to this incident, and T82, been known. Presently, all the A models are grounded pending further investigation. As stated before, the crews and those operating the aircraft know what happened, but speculation right now will only serve to cause potential damage to the air tanker program, and won't generate any useful information outside the industry. It's very much an in-house issue.

Steve Waas was one of the most experienced tanker pilots flying. The memorial for all three crewmembers was Saturday in Minden, NV. T-00 (A P-3A) did a flyby and turned west, symbolic of Tanker 130 flying west.

Mike Lynn, a giant of a man and a staple in the tanker industry, has posted a web tribute to Steve and T130, for anybody who might be interested. Mike was Steve's best friend. I'll get the link and copy it here for those who might wish to visit it. It won't provide any dirt on the crash, but is a nice reflection on the man who flew the airplane.

 

[C-5 MEM]

Its very sad that these men died. My prayers go out to there family and friends. I flew on the 130E and 130H. I adjusted power and refastend my shoulder harness.

I am now on the C141's in Memphis. Last December we had a wing fail on the right side during refueling. What had happend was that we had a fuel leak. The maint. crew plugged the vent system and placed air into the tanks to locate the leak. They found the leak and re-applied the air to check for the leaks which there were none. They were in such a rush to get the aircraft back over to Germany they began fueling. At 120,000 lbs the wing ruptured on the right main inboard tank. This caused the left wing to get heavy fall and strike the ground which ruptured the inboard main tank, aux tank and extended range tank.. Almost like rocking horse. We lost over 102,000 lbs of fuel.
If we were airborn doing a air refueling this would have been the same as the 130.

We all no the risks when we fly, either in combat or flying for enjoyment. High insight is 20/20. For me to know the cause is important, so that I might learn something and maybe prevent something like that from happening again.


C141

 

[Mr Freeze]

AvBug,


Thanks for clarifying that for me. Our hearts go out to the families and friends. When you choose to be a pilot, it's because you love to do it. And we all take a chance every time we fly. If I go while flying, well, so be it. I was doing what I love to do. I'll enjoy it to the end. Fly on.

 

[goldentrout]

Avbug

Your tone sure comes across in a very arrogant fashion. Pilots learn from other pilots mistakes, problems, and miscalculations...in planes other than the ones they fly.

There no FAA rules or laws prohibiting a pilot from speculating on or providing information on an accident in which he/she was not involved (if there are, please enlighten me).

When I have information about an accident/incident, I feel an obligation to me fellow aviators to let them know as soon as possible, in order that they might learn soemthing about aviation from my misfortunes.

I admire what you do...we all feel the anguish of your loss. But keeping information from us that you are legally allowed to share with your fellow aviators, seems to fly in the face of the spirit of safety in our profession.

 

[F/O]

C141FE

Just so I get this straight, on the later Hercs you flew you were able to accomplish required duties with at least your LAP belt secured? Apparently the engineers couldn't on the A model like the one that crashed.

It would suck to go bouncing off the overhead panel in the middle of a fire bombing run....