C130 Crash Video

[publisher]

thanks Avweb

Thanks Avweb for your usual insight.

The fact is that many aircraft end up doing something not quite what they were designed for. Fire Tankers are subject to stresses well beyond the average bear.

Along the way, I have been fortunate to meet many of the Avbug types. At Evergreen, they were all over the place. Later in Africa and around SAT, even more.

They were around at Air America and CAT, the flew in the Flying Tigers. They were pilots.

Part of my views expressed on these boards that are taken to be anti airline pilots merely reflect the fact that these are the people I admired. Most of my friends who fly in the airlines are concerned with everything in the world except flying. To these people, that is all they thought about.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>thanks Avweb

Who is this? Do you mean Avbug?

 

[F/O]

Yes, the seat moves on a track. What does that have to do with anything?

Avbug

The reason I asked the question is that on all of the large jet aircraft on which I've trained, crewed, or jumpseated, the engineer is able to move his seat either electrically or manually into a close in, forward facing position behind the console from which he can operate the throttles with both his lap belt and shoulder straps on. For whatever reason, it appears this is not the case on the Hercs you've flown. This seems unusual to me.

 

[LR25]

DC-8's

I work on DC-8's and I know of some FE's that have to pull the shoulder harness to the sides or disconnect them to adjust power levers when they are advanced. And those seats move in 8 different directions.

LR25

 

[Mr Freeze]

Is it possible that an internal explosion had taken place?
An electrical short of some kind; an ignition source in that area of the wing igniting the fuel that caused the wings to come flying off seconds apart from each other. Looking at the tape, when the wings fail, you notice a trail of fire streaming back from the root area.

 

[avbug]

Mr. Freeze,

That would be a good guess, but what you're seeing in the video is the fuel manifold rupturing. The fire in the video is insignificant, and isn't the cause of the separation.

It's a valid assumption, however, in that we thought that was what happened to T82 years ago. It had been flying straight and level on a load and return, empty, south of Palmdale, CA. Whitnesses saw an explosion, followed by a couple of secondaries, and the wings separated.

At the time, and what has been taught in groundschools since then, was that a wire short from a fuel quantity indicator caused an explosion in a drybay (interior service area in the wing between tanks). It was believed that the circuit breaker had popped, and that the FE reset it. It was believed that it popped again, and that the FE reset it again, triggering the explosion.

Some validity to this belief was provided because this happened to several of the same type, on the ground over the years, and personal accounts verified the cause. However, in the case of T82, no such verification was available, because like T130, everyone who could verify the problem was dead.

Only in the past few years has the information applicable to this incident, and T82, been known. Presently, all the A models are grounded pending further investigation. As stated before, the crews and those operating the aircraft know what happened, but speculation right now will only serve to cause potential damage to the air tanker program, and won't generate any useful information outside the industry. It's very much an in-house issue.

Steve Waas was one of the most experienced tanker pilots flying. The memorial for all three crewmembers was Saturday in Minden, NV. T-00 (A P-3A) did a flyby and turned west, symbolic of Tanker 130 flying west.

Mike Lynn, a giant of a man and a staple in the tanker industry, has posted a web tribute to Steve and T130, for anybody who might be interested. Mike was Steve's best friend. I'll get the link and copy it here for those who might wish to visit it. It won't provide any dirt on the crash, but is a nice reflection on the man who flew the airplane.

 

[C-5 MEM]

Its very sad that these men died. My prayers go out to there family and friends. I flew on the 130E and 130H. I adjusted power and refastend my shoulder harness.

I am now on the C141's in Memphis. Last December we had a wing fail on the right side during refueling. What had happend was that we had a fuel leak. The maint. crew plugged the vent system and placed air into the tanks to locate the leak. They found the leak and re-applied the air to check for the leaks which there were none. They were in such a rush to get the aircraft back over to Germany they began fueling. At 120,000 lbs the wing ruptured on the right main inboard tank. This caused the left wing to get heavy fall and strike the ground which ruptured the inboard main tank, aux tank and extended range tank.. Almost like rocking horse. We lost over 102,000 lbs of fuel.
If we were airborn doing a air refueling this would have been the same as the 130.

We all no the risks when we fly, either in combat or flying for enjoyment. High insight is 20/20. For me to know the cause is important, so that I might learn something and maybe prevent something like that from happening again.


C141

 

[Mr Freeze]

AvBug,


Thanks for clarifying that for me. Our hearts go out to the families and friends. When you choose to be a pilot, it's because you love to do it. And we all take a chance every time we fly. If I go while flying, well, so be it. I was doing what I love to do. I'll enjoy it to the end. Fly on.

 

[goldentrout]

Avbug

Your tone sure comes across in a very arrogant fashion. Pilots learn from other pilots mistakes, problems, and miscalculations...in planes other than the ones they fly.

There no FAA rules or laws prohibiting a pilot from speculating on or providing information on an accident in which he/she was not involved (if there are, please enlighten me).

When I have information about an accident/incident, I feel an obligation to me fellow aviators to let them know as soon as possible, in order that they might learn soemthing about aviation from my misfortunes.

I admire what you do...we all feel the anguish of your loss. But keeping information from us that you are legally allowed to share with your fellow aviators, seems to fly in the face of the spirit of safety in our profession.

 

[F/O]

C141FE

Just so I get this straight, on the later Hercs you flew you were able to accomplish required duties with at least your LAP belt secured? Apparently the engineers couldn't on the A model like the one that crashed.

It would suck to go bouncing off the overhead panel in the middle of a fire bombing run....

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Avbug

goldentrout, I agree Avbug does sound very arrogant most of the time. He is probably a guy that just never was good enough to be a military pilot like us and still holds a lot of resentment. But then again its hard being good enough for the military to want you. We are few and far between.

 

[aero99]

"But then again its hard being good enough for the military to want you. We are few and far between."

bbj, your the one sounding arrogant. Get over yourself.

If avbug doesn't want to talk about it he has that right.

Give the guy a break.

 

[trainerjet]

Aero99,

Look at B-J-J Fighter's profile. Read his posts. He's nothing but a flamer. I'm surprised you took his bait.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Arrogant

Of course my profile is a joke, I have not flown any of those airplanes. I got accepted to fly in the Army last week and the Marines.

Im going army because of the wrestling program program, yep thats right the wrestling program. I wrestled D1 in college and went to the nationals only to be injured and having to rehab my knee. Its about to be back to 100 % after 4 years of rehab. I was ranked nationally and plan to wrestle in the army's program after flight school. I have 2 former college wrestling buddy on the team and they say its a blast being able to wrestle on the team. I look really foward to the competition of trying to make the team. I know I will be able to do it. I wrestled some world class russian guys last week that are here for the summer running camps and yes they beat me but I was able to "hang".

Yes I'm arrogant and yes I have an ego, but I can back it up.

 

[ibaflyer]

I have been reading, with great interest, all of the information that everyone is sharing on this subject.

While it seems that Avbug is being honest about his exploits in this industry and a good source for information about this terrible accident, why give him a hard time if he feels the need to not "speculate" or offer a reason for why this happened?

I suppose that everyone has heard of the word "ASSUME" and knows the saying that goes along with it and while everyone does have an opinion, remember that opinions are subjective.

And as for the "being a military pilot" statement? I too, am not a military pilot and I would have been except for eye problems. Just because I am not a Gov't trained aviator, does not make me or anyone else like me, any less of a pilot.

Because I am a pilot, I would love to hear what it is like to be a military pilot and fly mach 2, dog fight and all of the other cool stories that you might have but beacuse I am a pilot, I would be JUST as interested in listening to a 90 year old pilot at the local airport telling me how to land a T-Craft in a x-wind.

Just my .02

 

[avbug]

Oh yeah, goldentrout. You're right. Not being in on this one will compromise your safety in a big way. Denying the spirit, blasphemous to the profession. You'll be cursing me if you find yourself in that BE-1900 at 150' some night in 300 foot flames.

Do you really think that anything at all connected to this event will in any way change the way you operate, or provide meaningful information that will affect the safety of your operations? Didn't think so.

There is a very select few people who it will affect, however, in a big way, and on a very personal level. They already know. Nuff said?

There is no resentment for or against the military on my part. I have a great deal of resentment against egoistic aviators; ego, like speed, kills. Any inferrence to such fantasy sounds more freudian than realistic. I harbor no such desires, fantasies, and have enough experience in military equipment that I don't need to harbor those fantasies. And yes, I'm just as happy in a cub as a lear as anything else...it all flies, and I'm plain lucky to be able to do it.

Forget the "good enough" garbage, and all the hollywood tripe about being the best. That's hogwash. It's all about being fortuante enough to be able to fly at all, and increadibly fortunate enough to be able to get paid to do it. There are certain lines of work that have no glory to them at all; flying tankers is one of those lines. It's very dirty, very messy, gets no respect, and involves a great deal of risk. Those who do it are often referred to as "tanker trash."

Considering the millions of individuals who yearn to fly and who will never get the chance, we who do have such a privilege owe it to the world to treat our profession with respect, and humility, and only the deepest of gratitude for what we are able to do. Any egoistic self serving statement above and beyond this is only detrimental to us all, and is most certainly in stark disrespect for the spirit of the community.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Avbug

On some posts you seem like a nice guy and provide good info, on some posts like "Which A/C was hard for you to fly" or something along those lines, it was a thread a while back you just seem flat out arrogant. Im done with this thread argueing on the net is dumb.

 

[C-5 MEM]

AVBUG

I was reading about where you said you can not use your shoulder harness. Why is that again.

 

[bubba]

GoldenTrout, B-B-Jfighter,etc.

Me thinks that you boys don't understand that this is an anonymous bbs. One must read a posters writings and decide if that person is who says he is. Some participants obviously have a great deal of experience and knowledge, Avbug appears to fit that catagory. So when he writes, I read. However, being human he sometimes does make mistakes. I would say that it was his mistake to enter into this discussion. I forgive him. I have no doubt that he is/was a fire bomber pilot and but I also am disappointed that he "teased" us with a statement that was tantamount to saying Na-Na-Na-Boo-Boo. However, as I said this is just a bbs. If you don't like his posts, don't bother reading. Fussing with him is just a waste of all our time.

The south will rise again!

 

[C-5 MEM]

I found where AVBUG made the statement that you can not use your shoulder harness for takeoff and power setting. I thought that was strange. I have never flown in the C130A, but with 1990 hours in the E and H model. I did not know. So I talked with my chief FE who flew on the A model. He said that the FE never touches the power levers, in a takeoff or any other time. I called the chief FE of the 21st Air Force and asked him the same question. His answer was the same. So unless something has changed the FE never touches the power lever.