C130 Crash Video

[B-J-J Fighter]

Avbug

goldentrout, I agree Avbug does sound very arrogant most of the time. He is probably a guy that just never was good enough to be a military pilot like us and still holds a lot of resentment. But then again its hard being good enough for the military to want you. We are few and far between.

 

[aero99]

"But then again its hard being good enough for the military to want you. We are few and far between."

bbj, your the one sounding arrogant. Get over yourself.

If avbug doesn't want to talk about it he has that right.

Give the guy a break.

 

[trainerjet]

Aero99,

Look at B-J-J Fighter's profile. Read his posts. He's nothing but a flamer. I'm surprised you took his bait.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Arrogant

Of course my profile is a joke, I have not flown any of those airplanes. I got accepted to fly in the Army last week and the Marines.

Im going army because of the wrestling program program, yep thats right the wrestling program. I wrestled D1 in college and went to the nationals only to be injured and having to rehab my knee. Its about to be back to 100 % after 4 years of rehab. I was ranked nationally and plan to wrestle in the army's program after flight school. I have 2 former college wrestling buddy on the team and they say its a blast being able to wrestle on the team. I look really foward to the competition of trying to make the team. I know I will be able to do it. I wrestled some world class russian guys last week that are here for the summer running camps and yes they beat me but I was able to "hang".

Yes I'm arrogant and yes I have an ego, but I can back it up.

 

[ibaflyer]

I have been reading, with great interest, all of the information that everyone is sharing on this subject.

While it seems that Avbug is being honest about his exploits in this industry and a good source for information about this terrible accident, why give him a hard time if he feels the need to not "speculate" or offer a reason for why this happened?

I suppose that everyone has heard of the word "ASSUME" and knows the saying that goes along with it and while everyone does have an opinion, remember that opinions are subjective.

And as for the "being a military pilot" statement? I too, am not a military pilot and I would have been except for eye problems. Just because I am not a Gov't trained aviator, does not make me or anyone else like me, any less of a pilot.

Because I am a pilot, I would love to hear what it is like to be a military pilot and fly mach 2, dog fight and all of the other cool stories that you might have but beacuse I am a pilot, I would be JUST as interested in listening to a 90 year old pilot at the local airport telling me how to land a T-Craft in a x-wind.

Just my .02

 

[avbug]

Oh yeah, goldentrout. You're right. Not being in on this one will compromise your safety in a big way. Denying the spirit, blasphemous to the profession. You'll be cursing me if you find yourself in that BE-1900 at 150' some night in 300 foot flames.

Do you really think that anything at all connected to this event will in any way change the way you operate, or provide meaningful information that will affect the safety of your operations? Didn't think so.

There is a very select few people who it will affect, however, in a big way, and on a very personal level. They already know. Nuff said?

There is no resentment for or against the military on my part. I have a great deal of resentment against egoistic aviators; ego, like speed, kills. Any inferrence to such fantasy sounds more freudian than realistic. I harbor no such desires, fantasies, and have enough experience in military equipment that I don't need to harbor those fantasies. And yes, I'm just as happy in a cub as a lear as anything else...it all flies, and I'm plain lucky to be able to do it.

Forget the "good enough" garbage, and all the hollywood tripe about being the best. That's hogwash. It's all about being fortuante enough to be able to fly at all, and increadibly fortunate enough to be able to get paid to do it. There are certain lines of work that have no glory to them at all; flying tankers is one of those lines. It's very dirty, very messy, gets no respect, and involves a great deal of risk. Those who do it are often referred to as "tanker trash."

Considering the millions of individuals who yearn to fly and who will never get the chance, we who do have such a privilege owe it to the world to treat our profession with respect, and humility, and only the deepest of gratitude for what we are able to do. Any egoistic self serving statement above and beyond this is only detrimental to us all, and is most certainly in stark disrespect for the spirit of the community.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Avbug

On some posts you seem like a nice guy and provide good info, on some posts like "Which A/C was hard for you to fly" or something along those lines, it was a thread a while back you just seem flat out arrogant. Im done with this thread argueing on the net is dumb.

 

[C-5 MEM]

AVBUG

I was reading about where you said you can not use your shoulder harness. Why is that again.

 

[bubba]

GoldenTrout, B-B-Jfighter,etc.

Me thinks that you boys don't understand that this is an anonymous bbs. One must read a posters writings and decide if that person is who says he is. Some participants obviously have a great deal of experience and knowledge, Avbug appears to fit that catagory. So when he writes, I read. However, being human he sometimes does make mistakes. I would say that it was his mistake to enter into this discussion. I forgive him. I have no doubt that he is/was a fire bomber pilot and but I also am disappointed that he "teased" us with a statement that was tantamount to saying Na-Na-Na-Boo-Boo. However, as I said this is just a bbs. If you don't like his posts, don't bother reading. Fussing with him is just a waste of all our time.

The south will rise again!

 

[C-5 MEM]

I found where AVBUG made the statement that you can not use your shoulder harness for takeoff and power setting. I thought that was strange. I have never flown in the C130A, but with 1990 hours in the E and H model. I did not know. So I talked with my chief FE who flew on the A model. He said that the FE never touches the power levers, in a takeoff or any other time. I called the chief FE of the 21st Air Force and asked him the same question. His answer was the same. So unless something has changed the FE never touches the power lever.

 

[avbug]

This wasn't a MAFFs airplane; what the USAF does has no bearing on what the FE's in these airplanes do. The USAF doesn't require their crews to be mechanics and do the work on the airplanes, either.

I didn't enter into this discussion to throw dirt in anybodies face. I posted what I did because the origional intent of the thread, specifically stated, was to enquire about speculation. As we know from watching the talking heads of the media after every disaster and event, hundreds of experts plug up the airwaves with loads of speculation which is entirely worthless. In this case, what occured is already known, and it's being heavily discussed by those involved in these ops. There is absolutely nothing that can benifit the public by discussion of those things outside the industry, at the moment.

However, for reasons that would take a VERY long time to explain, opening a can of worms in any form for the industry could have harsh ramifications for those in the industry. Therefore, all that really needs be said is that speculation is futile and pointless, and that the problem is being dealt with by those whom it directly affects.

 

[Mr Freeze]

I guess it all depends on the FE or pilot's build. If he/she is a short person, some duties may be difficult for that person to reach. If they were on the heavy or tall side; the removal of one's seat belt might be necessary for them to perform their duties. Everyone has their own style as to how they get the job done.

 

[C-5 MEM]

What I was saying about the FE adjusting the power levers was not correct. The FE never touches the power levers. Thats why I was saying that the T130 the FE does not use his shoulder harness. Plus I emailed an FE out of KDEN and asked him about the T130. He said the only person who touches the power levers are the pilots.
As for the mechanics, that is correct we do not work on the aircraft, but are able to have limited repairs if we are out of maint. help.

Where does the T130 crews go for training? Are they in house?

 

[avbug]

In the USAF perhaps the FE doesn't touch the power levers. At Hawkins & Powers Aviation, the FE certainly does touch and manipulate the power levers, especially on the drop.

The HPC130A is type certificated for two crewmembers; the FE is optional. All crews without question have opted to use the FE. It's company policy, and everyone flies with an FE. All crewmembers are flight engineer qualified. In most cases, all crewmembers also hold a mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings.

In the case of Mike Davis on T130, he was commercially certificated as well as being an experienced FE, and could crew from the middle or right seat. All three members of the crew were able to perform maintenance, carried tools, and were FE qualified.

Crewmembers of each type flown there (P2V-7, C-130A, PB4Y-2, and C-97G) are mechanics, and carry tools, as well as a full compliment of spare parts (including built up tires, and a spare GTC in each herc). In the case of a couple of the airplanes, the two or three man crew does the full workload of a former 11 man crew, plus the entire support squadron that maintained the aircraft. It means a relatively high work load with a lot of manual labor and a limited number of people qualified and able to crew the airplanes. However, it's necessitated by the operating environment and requirements of these aircraft.

Being able to work on the aircraft as well as fly it is standard fare in the tanker industry; it's very necessary. There are a few exceptions; most military pilots coming aboard aren't qualified to turn wrenches, and aren't asked to. Several of the former C-130 drivers there are military, mostly Naval Aviators. No herc pilots there are currently military/former military. One is a former civil P3A driver. The Director of Operations is a former Navy P3 driver, and does some relief work in the hercs. Stevie Waas was civillian all the way, and a tanker driver from his youth.

All training is done in-house, excepting industry standard training, such as the National Aerial Firefighting Academy, some simulator training, etc. Primarily, training is done with live loads each spring, and as required during lulls in the season. Groundschools, type ratings, FE ratings, etc, are all done in-house. Occasionally an outside student is taken during groundschool, and taught inhouse.

There is really no preparatory background for this kind of work, and there are no schools or training programs for tanker pilots. The closest outside work would be ag work (crop dusting), though very few ag operations any more use large airplanes, or do the type of mountainous application done with the tankers. As a result, only limited training is available, and most training takes place in the field and on the job. Typical upgrades are five to ten years, depending on the individual and opportunities.

Typically for takeoff, the FE will set the power and take care of it until trend monitoring is done, then release it to the captain. The FE sets power during the takeoff under the captains hand and maintains the power levers through the takeoff. The same applies during the drop; the captain will make the drop with both hands on the yoke in most cases, and the FE will set power off the drop and limit it as required. The captain or copilot will operate the power levers during landing, depending on who is performing the landing. In most cases, it's always the captain.

There's really no comparison to the way the military flies these airplanes, and the way they're operated in the fire service. Pilots load retardant, get dirty, wash the airplanes with a brush and a firehose, change tires by hand, and perform the A & B checks in the field, etc. At least one Captain has over 30 years experience performing maintenance as well as flying these airplanes; he runs the T-56 engine shop and does all the heavy maintenance (including hot sections) on them.

The crews are extremely qualified in the airplanes, in every aspect of their operation and maintenance, from IFR operations to Non Destructive Inspection techniques, structural repair, pneumatic troubleshooting, fuel systems, hydraulics, etc. The FE's are required to be the same, often to a much greater degree mechanically than the pilots, though few regular FE's are also pilots.

I promised a link to Mike Lynn's pages on Steve and T130. The links at the bottom of the following site will have pics on the airplane and things related to it, as well as some of the pilots who flew it. It was put together by a close friend of Steve Waas, and a genuine authority in the industry.

http://home.earthlink.net/~leadplane/_wsn/page3.html

I'm burned out on this thread. Have fun with it.

 

[de727ups]

Avbug

I've been following this thread. This pics at the links avbug provided reminded me of the movie "always"....these guys are a rare breed and a breed to be honored for what they are.

At the same time.....

"In the case of a couple of the airplanes, the two or three man crew does the full workload of a former 11 man crew, plus the entire support squadron that maintained the aircraft. It means a relatively high work load with a lot of manual labor and a limited number of people qualified and able to crew the airplanes. However, it's necessitated by the operating environment and requirements of these aircraft."

"Being able to work on the aircraft as well as fly it is standard fare in the tanker industry; it's very necessary. There are a few exceptions;"

"The crews are extremely qualified in the airplanes, in every aspect of their operation and maintenance, from IFR operations to Non Destructive Inspection techniques, structural repair, pneumatic troubleshooting, fuel systems, hydraulics, etc. The FE's are required to be the same, often to a much greater degree mechanically than the pilots, though few regular FE's are also pilots."

"Pilots load retardant, get dirty, wash the airplanes with a brush and a firehose, change tires by hand, and perform the A & B checks in the field, etc."

and finally.......

"However, how many people would go to work if they knew that on any given day there was a one in ten chance their airplane or truck or desk would explode?"

There are those here that think ALPA and pilot's union's are a scam and a fraud....have no respect for airline pilot's and the job they do....and think airline pilots are all prima donna's who don't care about "real flying" or whatever.....

Personally, I'm grateful for organized labor and the union's that came about out of necessity years ago to see that airline pilot's don't have to deal with the "extra stuff" that tanker pilots have to endure. Tanker pilots do it out of a sense of honor and duty.....but is it really safe, especially considering avbugs one in ten quote? Does it make sense to keep pushing the envelope in the name of duty and honor? At some point the reasonable pilot says "hell no...we're not gonna take it anymore". So the tanker pilots haven't reached that point yet....I don't think airline pilot's can be blamed for having reached that point years ago....or now.

I have respect for the "tanker trash" that does a hard job in difficult circumstances.....at the same time I think airline pilot's deserve a lot of respect for standing up to management over the years when presented with situations or conditions that compromised safey....airline pilots should never have the "get the job done at any cost" attitude that the tanker pilots have...and shouldn't be thought less of for not having it.