C-Series Order??

[General Lee]

Oh I know how it works OYS, er Jenny, oh hell, putz good enough for you two. Wait now boss, nothing over 30 seats, oh ok, 50 seats. What now you want 70 seats, geez, what, 76 seats! OK we want our scope back this time. You mean you'll give us 30percent for 76 seats, what, 100seats. Geez that's a nice bump there boss, but 100seats, I dunno, I mean we'll lose face to those clowns on FI. Oh alright, but no more than 100 seats, ok boss? Yeah we know it works, we sure do, uh huh.

Thanks Mr Valdosta. Those 76 seaters were thrown at Dalpa in BK, with the judge approving it. Since then, no extra RJs, including during the joint contract with NWA. No increase at all, except a 17% raise for the pilots during high oil. (it was $130 a barrel and rising at that time) But, no more RJs. They had a chance, and it was voted down. But, you somehow think it can happen again, even though there were prior negotiations that didn't allow them when DL and NWA got together. Oh, wait, you forgot that part. Oooops. Looks like you are the putz, for sure. Uh huh.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BentOver]

I no longer have a dog in this fight..But General, seriously...When and if DAlpa tightens scope, or stops it at it's current level...THEN YOU CAN TALK THE TALK....Up until now though, it's all been lip service.

I agree with those that think DAlpa will give up more scope..WHY? Because up to this point you all have allowed it. In this case past performance is indicative of future results....Hopefully you all at DAlpa can put an end to it. But until that time, you kinda sound ridiculuous.

 

[DwayneWorthless]

No Scope relief. The "C" series will be flown by Mainline pilots at Regional rates.

 

[bri5150]

No Scope relief. The "C" series will be flown by Mainline pilots at Regional rates.

It's better than at a regional with regional rates.

 

[pilotyip]

It's better than at a regional with regional rates.

At least they will on a list that allows them with time to bid into the better pay. The way it should have been all along.

 

[bri5150]

At least they will on a list that allows them with time to bid into the better pay. The way it should have been all along.

Exactly.

 

[RJLoser]

OYS is right. No unofficial talks (the openers haven't even been given yet), and nobody wants to give away any extra scope protections. If anything, they will get tighter.


Bye Bye---General Lee

GL- I had one of your widebody CA's in my Jumpseat. He said it would be the biggest no brainer to give away the 100 seat. He said the money would be too good. This is the battle they will be talking about down the road...why mainline screwed up giving 100 seat scope away. You guys are going to do it for the money. Always have always will. I know you feel different gl. It's your buddies that are going to sell you down the river.

 

[On Your Six]

I no longer have a dog in this fight..But General, seriously...When and if DAlpa tightens scope, or stops it at it's current level...THEN YOU CAN TALK THE TALK....Up until now though, it's all been lip service.

I agree with those that think DAlpa will give up more scope..WHY? Because up to this point you all have allowed it. In this case past performance is indicative of future results....Hopefully you all at DAlpa can put an end to it. But until that time, you kinda sound ridiculuous.

Did DALPA give up more scope in the joint contract with NWA? They didn't have to tighten it then, oil was high, and RJs started to get parked en mass. No additional RJs were allowed at that point, right? I think GL is right, and your theory is way off. The opportunity was there to give away more, and it didn't happen. I'm fairly new here, and I don't hear anything that you suggest.


OYS

 

[atpcliff]

How do you know Joe that they WILL be flown at regional rates? JB E190s have pretty good rates, and they are the same size as the C Series

The "C" is bigger than the E190. The smaller "C" is more than 100 seats.

cliff
SYD

 

[On Your Six]

GL- I had one of your widebody CA's in my Jumpseat. He said it would be the biggest no brainer to give away the 100 seat. He said the money would be too good. This is the battle they will be talking about down the road...why mainline screwed up giving 100 seat scope away. You guys are going to do it for the money. Always have always will. I know you feel different gl. It's your buddies that are going to sell you down the river.

Again, they had the chance during joint contract talks, and it didnt happen, even with the widebody guys there. What is your response? Did it happen or not? The General is right.


OYS

 

[General Lee]

GL- I had one of your widebody CA's in my Jumpseat. He said it would be the biggest no brainer to give away the 100 seat. He said the money would be too good. This is the battle they will be talking about down the road...why mainline screwed up giving 100 seat scope away. You guys are going to do it for the money. Always have always will. I know you feel different gl. It's your buddies that are going to sell you down the river.

I don't care what he said, I just cancelled his yes vote with my future NO if that was ever on a TA (very doubtful). There are plenty more pilots that don't want to move an inch on scope. You can count every FO (more than number of Captains due to INTL requirements--most flights are 2 FOs, 1 Capt), and half of the Captains (all narrowbody at least) who would vote NO in a second. Most of the guys I fly with commute on those RJs, and hate them. Why would we want to give anything else to DCI? Just aint gonna happen. Sorry, you and that Captain LOSE, and I kinda feel bad for you two. Really.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I no longer have a dog in this fight..But General, seriously...When and if DAlpa tightens scope, or stops it at it's current level...THEN YOU CAN TALK THE TALK....Up until now though, it's all been lip service.

I agree with those that think DAlpa will give up more scope..WHY? Because up to this point you all have allowed it. In this case past performance is indicative of future results....Hopefully you all at DAlpa can put an end to it. But until that time, you kinda sound ridiculuous.

OYS is right, we didn't allow any extra RJs in during our last big negotiations, the joint contract. WE CAN TALK THE TALK, because we didn't allow extra. We saw high oil killing them anyway, and to this day more than 100 of the 50 seaters have been parked, a long with a bunch of E135s (CHQ) and now some props. That's the way it goes......



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[james1]

In my limited response to this stuff...what if Comair was stapled and Comair flew any more RJ's as Big D needed what y'all think about that??????

 

[RJLoser]

I don't care what he said, I just cancelled his yes vote with my future NO if that was ever on a TA (very doubtful). There are plenty more pilots that don't want to move an inch on scope. You can count every FO (more than number of Captains due to INTL requirements--most flights are 2 FOs, 1 Capt), and half of the Captains (all narrowbody at least) who would vote NO in a second. Most of the guys I fly with commute on those RJs, and hate them. Why would we want to give anything else to DCI? Just aint gonna happen. Sorry, you and that Captain LOSE, and I kinda feel bad for you two. Really.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Dont get me wrong..I am ALL for you hanging on to scope.

 

[damnflyboy]

Hold your ground on scope, legacy guys. The "regionals" will have no choice but to disappear...or branch outwards and upwards (which companies like a SkyWest Inc with big war chests won't take laying down). The economy of scale strategy will only carry these airlines so far with the perfect storm of labor shortage on the horizon(that is, if you believe in it), so upwards will likely be the preferred direction. Supply and demand is a consistant animal of economics. So, more compensation for pilots. Extrapolation from this point will only reveal the foolhardy fortune-tellers among our ranks. But, sure. Let's hear it.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Did DALPA give up more scope in the joint contract with NWA? They didn't have to tighten it then, oil was high, and RJs started to get parked en mass. No additional RJs were allowed at that point, right? I think GL is right, and your theory is way off. The opportunity was there to give away more, and it didn't happen. I'm fairly new here, and I don't hear anything that you suggest.


OYS

Well not quite, With the merger, DAL was OVER its limit on 76 seat planes. All that was done was get a promise not to furlough in exchange for raising that limit to match what was in the combined operation. Not exactly holding the line. More like moving it to fit management.

 

[Flyerdan]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what airframe will replace the current 50 seat airframes? I can't imagine a 100 seat aircraft could be put on those routes without decreasing frequency to a rate that would be unacceptable to the flying public.

 

[bri5150]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what airframe will replace the current 50 seat airframes? I can't imagine a 100 seat aircraft could be put on those routes without decreasing frequency to a rate that would be unacceptable to the flying public.

My guess is they will still have 200's on the proper routes. They just won't have 100's and 100's of them. I don't know who made the decision to get that many, but it was flat out ridiculous. Does anyone know how many 50 seat jets were in the Delta system at it's peak?

 

[ohplease!]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what airframe will replace the current 50 seat airframes? I can't imagine a 100 seat aircraft could be put on those routes without decreasing frequency to a rate that would be unacceptable to the flying public.

700/900 with first class. ratio something around 1.5 to 1. slight drop in frequency in some markets with the insertion of a mainline narrow body or two on some very high volume routes during peak times. The majority of the loss in flying coming from the final shut down of Comair.....Delta side.

700/900 with first class ratio of 2 to 1 also with a slight drop in frequency in some markets and a mainline narrow body or two...

We'll give up dual-qual for better contract language and a minimal pay raise. That along with the slight drop in the number of planes will help to make up for the loss a some pilots to mainline carriers when the do hire in a couple of years....forget about the "pilot shortage" and massive hiring at the majors....ain't going to happen.

100 seaters???? depends on how big a carrot mainline dangles in front of the deltoids....we should know that answer in about ohhhhh, 3 more years

 

[Abernathy]

I can't imagine a 100 seat aircraft could be put on those routes without decreasing frequency to a rate that would be unacceptable to the flying public.

The flying public is lucky there is service at all to places like Alpena, MI and most places in Alabama.

 

[xjhawk]

i hope scope is tightened up or at least stays the same. But I have been told that because of the possible new duty time regulations that Delta asked to open up negotiations on that portion of the contract. It was then said that Delta asked to open up the whole contract......I am guessing a sweetheart deal on pay for a relief in scope.....hold the line guys...hold the line....

 

[xjhawk]

this is now in the regionals area......the administrators are tools.....this post is about keeping the C series at main line...or as some say.... "majors" hence why it was in majors area to begin with....move it back please....none of us who fly regionals now who want to make it to the "majors" want the C series to go "regional"

 

[CaribPilot]

forget about the "pilot shortage" and massive hiring at the majors....ain't going to happen.

No massive hiring at the majors?

Have you seen the age 65 numbers? You really don't think the majors aren't going to massively hire in the next 5 years? You cannot be serious.

Something like 1/3rd of the entire major/cargo pilot group is about to age out.

 

[damnflyboy]

No massive hiring at the majors?

Have you seen the age 65 numbers? You really don't think the majors aren't going to massively hire in the next 5 years? You cannot be serious.

Something like 1/3rd of the entire major/cargo pilot group is about to age out.

You can't fight an emotional argument with one based on fact and real numbers. It's the same reason that I can't have an intelligent conversation with a hippie.

 

[On Your Six]

700/900 with first class. ratio something around 1.5 to 1. slight drop in frequency in some markets with the insertion of a mainline narrow body or two on some very high volume routes during peak times. The majority of the loss in flying coming from the final shut down of Comair.....Delta side.

700/900 with first class ratio of 2 to 1 also with a slight drop in frequency in some markets and a mainline narrow body or two...

We'll give up dual-qual for better contract language and a minimal pay raise. That along with the slight drop in the number of planes will help to make up for the loss a some pilots to mainline carriers when the do hire in a couple of years....forget about the "pilot shortage" and massive hiring at the majors....ain't going to happen.

100 seaters???? depends on how big a carrot mainline dangles in front of the deltoids....we should know that answer in about ohhhhh, 3 more years

That's funny, 192 senior pilots signed up for an early out program that was
due on June 30th. Sounds like some major upward movement, when one senior widebody Captain leaves, 10 people move UP, and that can mean hiring too. 2000 total pilots are in the zone to retire now or within the next few years at DL.

As far as 100 seaters goes, only the top 5% would ever sell scope, and they are leaving. The rest want tighter scope on code shares, and RJs. You really shouldn't get too excited, and instead worry about your own dwindling career.



OYS

 

[RJLoser]

Yup. They are only yours to lose six.

 

[FDJ2]

GL- I had one of your widebody CA's in my Jumpseat. He said it would be the biggest no brainer to give away the 100 seat.

I don't think so. I don't think there are any discussions to loosen scope and I don't think there are any members of the MEC who would support it.

 

[RJLoser]

I don't think so. I don't think there are any discussions to loosen scope and I don't think there are any members of the MEC who would support it.

He did say there have been no discussions about this. He was just stating if they drop 30-35% in his lap he was going to take it in a heartbeat. Hope he is in the minority.

 

[bri5150]

So let me get this straight. What people are saying is there are a ton of old people at the majors (there are a lot of retirements coming up). Also what people are saying is only the old guys are going to vote to get rid of scope. So, my algebra tells me that there are a ton of guys that are going to vote to get rid of scope, right?

 

[damnflyboy]

So let me get this straight. What people are saying is there are a ton of old people at the majors (there are a lot of retirements coming up). Also what people are saying is only the old guys are going to vote to get rid of scope. So, my algebra tells me that there are a ton of guys that are going to vote to get rid of scope, right?

And then there's that "Operation Orange" thingy to further complicate the guessing game.

If you ask me, people tend to vote for themselves and their own families...not for the poor suckers (and families) beneath them.

But voting for the "greater cause"...it's a cute thought.