C-5 crash video

[RampFreeze]

Safety Privileged Information! WTFO?

Am I the only one here who saw the trailer at the end of the video that said that this is "Official Use Only Safety Privileged Information." (i.e. unauthorized disclosure is illegal) What in the H*ll is this doing on the internet? Too late now, the lawyers will be all over this so that the ORFs/retired pax in the back (getting a free Space-A ride) can sue everyone involved.

I know, I can see the replies now of "Who cares, it's good information everyone can learn from" Unfortunately, that's not the point. The USAF holds two investigation boards on every accident. One is the Accident Investigation Board (AIB) where everything can be made public and criminal charges can be levied. The other investigation (conducted by a completely different set of investigators) is called the Safety Investigation Board (SIB). Anything from an SIB (like this video) is confidential, kept within USAF aviation channels and is used only for accident prevention/education. People are offered confidentiality when interviewed by an SIB and anything they produce (like this video) is "supposedly" protected from unauthorized release so that the lawyers can't get a hold of it. The AIB always (as far as I can tell) comes to an identical overall finding from their investigation as the SIB, but since everyone interviewed gets the "You have the right to remain silent" intro, its findings are publicly releasable. I don't mind seeing AIB information released to the world, but it is criminal to release SIB info. People are going to stop talking to the SIB investigators if this keeps up and this will really hurt accident prevention efforts. Am I the only guy to get the annual briefing on Safety Privilege from the flight safety guys?

 

[Fox-Tree]

Am I to understand that in the cockpit full of pilots, nobody noticed that there were two sets of engine gauges showing 0 and idle respectively? Nobody thought something was up?

No. Two of the "cockpit full of pilots" noticed it but they didn't feel like saying anything.

 

[flyboyike]

No. Two of the "cockpit full of pilots" noticed it but they didn't feel like saying anything.

That's just great.

 

[JimNtexas]

As I posted in the other thread on this incident, the Air Force Times printed the accident report:
http://www.airforcetimes.com/content/editorial/pdf/af_c5crash_report061606.pdf

The accident board places all the blame on the crew, but I have to wonder if any management factors contributed to this aspect of the flight:

All crewmembers who were interviewed and/or provided written statements were given the opportunity for adequate crew rest. However given the early alert time on the day of the mishap (0100L) no crewmember from whom data was obtained slept longer than four and one half hours...

(emphasis added)

No wonder they were not on their A-game.

 

[TankerDriver]

Am I the only one here who saw the trailer at the end of the video that said that this is "Official Use Only Safety Privileged Information." (i.e. unauthorized disclosure is illegal) What in the H*ll is this doing on the internet? Too late now, the lawyers will be all over this so that the ORFs/retired pax in the back (getting a free Space-A ride) can sue everyone involved.

Yeah, no $hit. Let the people who can learn something from this, (ie: "privileged" Air Force personnel/aircrew) see this, not the rest of the world.

 

[RJP]

Am I the only guy to get the annual briefing on Safety Privilege from the flight safety guys?

Apparently you're the only one who gives enough of a sh!t to stay awake during that crap.

ps. Shiner Bock rules!

 

[Fox-Tree]

That's just great.

Not the brightest bulb in the lamp - hmmm?

I was kidding. Of course none of the pilots in the cockpit caught the errors you mentioned. If they did, the aircraft wouldn't have CRASHED because they would have SAID something.

So, just so we're clear and your queston is answered: No - no one saw that the bad engine was trying to be used and the good engine was at idle AND.... no one thought "something was up". So...... they crashed.

That should get you up to speed.

 

[McGillicutty]

That's just great.

Granted the C5 is no Piper Meridian buuuut... understand this is more than putting two of Jerry's Kids in the front seats and asking them to fly.

 

[Vandal]

AF is pissed this leaked, my wing commader sent out an email yesterday making sure you deleted it if it was living on your harddrive.

 

[prozac]

Hey, h25b, you surely don't think you got all the facts from a few minutes of video do you? If you don't have all the info, don't pass judgement. There are usually many factors involved in an accident, and the truth is, you just don't know. The AC may have been dead tired, he may have been stone drunk, or he may have just made a mistake (albiet a big one) that no one caught. The fact is, we are all human, and we all f&*k up once in a while, whatever the reason.

Ramp Freeze, I think you're right on and I'm not even a safety guy. I wouldn't want to talk to anyone after an incident if I knew little tidbits of info were going to be posted all over everywhere for guys like h25b to critique. Sorry if you civilians think we're keeping all the info to ourselves, but some military procedures actually make sense (hard to believe, I know).

 

[h25b]

Hey, h25b, you surely don't think you got all the facts from a few minutes of video do you? If you don't have all the info, don't pass judgement. There are usually many factors involved in an accident, and the truth is, you just don't know. The AC may have been dead tired, he may have been stone drunk, or he may have just made a mistake (albiet a big one) that no one caught. The fact is, we are all human, and we all f&*k up once in a while, whatever the reason.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying.. I just don't see where you could disagree with anything I stated ??? If you can listen to the conversations they were having as they were turning final and can conclude that they were ready for the approach then perhaps there's something missing in your military CRM training. Pretty much CRM 101 stuff going on there.

Perhaps there were other aircraft issues or perhaps other issues pertaining to the crew but I'll be damned if I can figure out what they would be that could make any of my observations too off base.

 

[prozac]

h25b,
In some aircraft, there is a "local" function on the interphone. It allows people at different crew stations to have conversations without stepping all over each other. I'm not familiar with the C-5, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had this feature. Perhaps this is why there seems to be so much unnecessary chatter going on? I also know for a fact that when you start to pile crewdogs into an airplane that CRM can become a nightmare. Anyways, with these things you never really know what happened unless you were there.

 

[h25b]

Perhaps this is why there seems to be so much unnecessary chatter going on? I also know for a fact that when you start to pile crewdogs into an airplane that CRM can become a nightmare. Anyways, with these things you never really know what happened unless you were there.

You're missing my point... It's not that there's a problem with all of the discussion going on. It's the fact that all of this discussion was still going on while they were bailing in for approach. They probably had enough gas to circle for 7 hours to get everything figured out and come to a consensus between all of them before deciding to go on in. I don't care if there were 20 of them on the flight deck they had plenty of time to get all all figured out... My point is that all of the discussion could have been to their favor.

Like I said, CRM 101...

 

[milplt]

RampFreeze - shack. It is time that the AF leadership stopped being "pissed" about these leaks and started making some examples. This is one of a long list. Back in '03 there was the AC-130 video using the 105mm against ground targets with comm (and callsigns) included. Very classified. Then, the safety reports of the MC-130 in Afghan that landed on the runway construction - safety reports being cut/pasted to the web. Who knows how many LANTIRN videos with audio and individual (and detailed) there I was stroies have been posted.

It's about time our leadership grew some hairy ones and started to create an environment where we are expected to show the professionalism that is required - and not do this crap just because it's cool. To much PC B******t, not enough concentration on the warfighting.

 

[flyboyike]

Granted the C5 is no Piper Meridian buuuut... understand this is more than putting two of Jerry's Kids in the front seats and asking them to fly.

I wholeheartedly understand and respect that, but I would think this is why the C-5 requires 4 times the flight crew of the Meridian. I can't help but hope that someone should give those engine gauges an occasional glance.

 

[satpak77]

this has nothing to do with the aircraft being a big bad C-5

take the accident report, delete "C-5", and you will see the following themes, common to most accidents

- lost S/A
- poor CRM
- got slow, and actually stalled the airplane on short final
- was below VASI/GS
- no brief
- quick to return to field...was an immediate return, ASAP, necessary? It was VFR, why not orbit overhead in a hold and let things settle down. "Wind your watch" and count to 10, etc.
- chitter chatter in cockpit from 5 miles until the crash
- crew rest issues
- multiple links in error chain

so everybody who thinks the "big bad C-5" factor had something to do with this, they are wrong. The above will set you up for any accident.

If you don't believe me, go stall your Skyhawk on 1 mile final, while flying 300 feet below the VASI, and see what happens.

If the Dover crew was at DFW they would have wiped out Grapevine Mills mall and killed hundreds. It just happened that a pasture existed at Dover AFB.

Don't kill the messenger, "you don't fly C-5s", etc etc

It is what it is.

 

[Gorilla]

Stapak is correct.

Guys, I love and support the military as much as anybody here. The video should not have been leaked because it was declared priveledged, although I don't agree with that classification in this instance.

With that said, I am a bit confused with the attitudes here. Military guys screw up just like civilian guys. We're all human. The "keep it secret" mentality seems to me to really say "we're embarrassed, and don't want anyone to know we screwed up." That's a bit childish.

I messed up plenty in the AF and fortunately lived through it.

I've mentioned this once before - If the incident involved national security, a weapons system, or some other problem that could be exploited by the bad guys, put a lid on it and seal it hard. But this is none of those.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

In that situation a lot is happening. Sounds like the crew acted about like any other crew would in the situation except for the screw up that put them in the dirt. I heard nothing unusual about the approach, the brief obviously happened before the part we got to hear.

Sounds like a simple procedure problem in the standard operating procedures, namely the practice of keeping the "dead" throttle at idle position. Most twin engine jets I have flown use this procedure to help identify quickly which one is failed during the high stress and workload period. However every airplane that I have flown with 3 or 4 engines the standard procedure trained is to use all thrust levers once the shut down is complete to avoid the situation that put them in the dirt.

I suspect that the C-5 op specs will see a revision shortly that mirrors what the civilian 747 and other 4 engine airplanes already do(if it's not already a procedure in the sim), all thrust levers in use even with one failed. Given the fact that the military still does a lot of engine out training in the airplane and almost no civilian does training in the airplane anymore (all in the sims) it will be a difference for the crews from sim to airplane, but it is obvious that simple little procedure would have avoided the accident given the info "released" to the public.

I know I do not fly FRED but I do fly one of the few airplanes out there that outweighs FRED and from that point of view this accident should never have happened. I would say that a good part of the blame on this one would have to go on the training that they received, IF they were indeed following standard procedure by leaving the "failed" throttle at idle. As we all know when the stress level goes up people tend to revert back to their training and sometimes seemingly simple things that would be noticed readily at other times are missed. (two n1's or EPR's at idle instead of just one etc.)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

this has nothing to do with the aircraft being a big bad C-5

take the accident report, delete "C-5", and you will see the following themes, common to most accidents

- lost S/A
- poor CRM
- got slow, and actually stalled the airplane on short final
- was below VASI/GS
- no brief
- quick to return to field...was an immediate return, ASAP, necessary? It was VFR, why not orbit overhead in a hold and let things settle down. "Wind your watch" and count to 10, etc.
- chitter chatter in cockpit from 5 miles until the crash
- crew rest issues
- multiple links in error chain

Lost SA....

There are multiple red flags that indicate a loss of SA. Four or more red flags equals an accident.

1. Ambiguity- thrust lever position, indication and percieved thrust output. Flap position too.
2. Preoccupation/No one flying the plane- PF flying switching(?), calling for flap changes and stalling the wing.
3. Ignoring minimums/limitations/policy- going below GS/VASI. Not following engine out procedures, variable flap positions.
4. Over trust/complacency- Lots of senior pilots/instructors-what could go wrong?
5. Not addressing descepancies- good engine at idle, slowing airspeed, below G/S and different flap positions
6. Confusion- Statement- "I am concerned". Concerned about what?
7. Poor communication- not following up on 'concerned' statement. AC didn't organize crew to get them cohesive for the approach.

I see 7 red flags. Almost twice needed to wreck a jet.

A total CRM failure. It also appears that the AC was not in command.

 

[RampFreeze]

...although I don't agree with that classification in this instance.

The reason the information should be kept "in house" is entirely for the protection of the people involved. If the AIB had created and released an identical tape, I'm all for releasing it. However, the very premise of the SIB is that everything generated through an SIB is "privileged information" so that the people involved can speak freely and say, "Yup, I screwed up. Here's how to keep from doing the dumb thing I did." By keeping the info in-house they don't have to fear that whatever they say "will be used against them in a court of law." Simply put, you can't court martial a guy (or be sued by a civilian lawyer) for what the SIB says or what the guy said to the SIB since the lawyers don't have (or shouldn't have) access to the information. On the other hand, saying I screwed up at an AIB can be the same as saying, "don't worry about gathering any other details to find out the real/contributing causes of the accident. Just go ahead and set my court martial date for dereliction of duty."

The only thing that makes this not as bad as releasing other SIB info is that the CVR tape is not considered the sole property of the SIB. The AIB has access to it as well. As a matter of fact, the regs say, "The Air Force does not give a promise of confidentiality to aircrews regarding their recorded cockpit communications." So, this one boils down to one thing – this is an SIB video and no SIB info should ever be released. If the AIB released an identical video, no foul.