Buying a Piper Twin Comanche?

[Vik]

I'm interested in purchasing a Piper Twin Comanche in the next 3-4 months.

I'd like to contact any owners or anyone with any information or advice. I have never owned an airplane before nor have I been involved in purchasing a plane for someone else.

I'm interested to know things like how much an overhaul on each engine costs, how long that takes, what about the props?

Is it possible to buy the plane and then get multi instruction in it and take the checkride in it or will insurance companies not allow that?

I'm interested in flying with a friend. How do non-owners of multi aircraft get insured?

I'd like to spend no more than $125k buying the plane, doing a pre-buy insepction on it, an annual and just getting it in decent shape. I plan to use it to fly about 500 hours/year for both work and experience building.

Any help would be appreciated. Any books I should read on buying a plane? Anything!! I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance

 

[labbats]

I'm not the wise veteran you're looking for, but I will say that our DE was talking to me about Twin Comanches recently. He said that he'd like to have that twin dollar for dollar over any other plane. I suppose he knows a thing or two about flying and your choice is a good one.

 

[310]

check for repetitive airframe ADs on twin comanche.
also consider SE performance

 

[Afixedwing]

Excellent combination of speed, fuel economy, and (relatively) cheap mx.
I reccomend buying one with the STOL kit... makes it a rather well-behaved aircraft during landing.

 

[TDTURBO]

A lot depends on where you live, hangering the plane can cost big bucks as well as taxes. I would suggest going to a web site specific to type. I own a 182RG and belong to the CPA. There are good organizations that can give you a wealth of information, including a spread sheet specific to your airplane. I would suggest reading as much as you can about this airplane and do as much research as possible before you buy. Buying a twin, especially an older twin, can be very expensive, the mx can kill you if you're not prepared. Find a type club and research what you can, if you buy right, ownership can be great! Do your homework!

 

[cvsfly]

Check into insurance. A friend of mine had some problems and the insurance broker actually suggested selling it. We don't do business with that broker anymore (different operation and plane). They definately did not want the Comanche doing any commercial work, i.e. being a rental or for flight instruction for anyone but the owner.

 

[Snakum]

In case you're considering leasing it back to an FBO to spread the $$$ ...

I looked into insurance just after 9/11 for a piston twin (Twin Commander and Seneca being considered), to be flown under Part 91 for an incorporated company. Needless to say, I almost had a heart attack.

Something to consider ...

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Since AOPA is giving away a restored Twin Commanche next December, you might want to check their website and upcoming issues of AOPA Pilot for more info, too.

 

[Checknsix]

First, do yourself a big favor and spend $50 bucks on the Used Aircraft Guide (think that is the title)...two big black and blue books. Shows you all of the repetitive and one time AD's, model years to avoid, fuel consumption, and basically the better part of the stats on each model.

A few years ago, I was in the market for a light twin...the Twin Comanche was one of them. After a lot of searching, I found a cherry Beech Travel Air instead. Tons more room in the interior, quieter, and Beech quality over Piper really does make a big difference. A few people don't like the throttle arrangement...but you get over it real quick when you feel how she handles. I put over a thousand hours on that thing in a year and a half. At that rate, you tend to go through most of your repetitive AD's a few times. I know the Piper had a pretty nasty rep AD on cleaning out fuel drains/filters and a rep AD on replacing gear bungies. The fuel AD would have been a serious pain in the ass at my usage level.

If you don't have at least a couple of hundred hours in twins, good luck on getting insurance. They are going to take you to the cleaners...if they offer coverage at all. Consider joining the EAA after getting some time...some insurance companies will redo the coverage when you join, and your rate can drop dramatically with a couple hundred hours in type.

My best advice, read the logs. Make sure they are complete. I looked at ten airplanes over several months...never flew one of them after looking at the logs first. The used aircraft industry makes the used car business look angelic. Also, buy the panel the way you want it if you can. Good avionics and high time motors can be a lot less expensive than poor equipment and poorly overhauled motors. Watch for timed out props. I went through my Hartzell 500 hr rep AD...each prop was something like 1/1000 under tolerance. Added $3600 to my overhaul.

Maintenance( including an annual) over a thousand hours was about $9000...not bad at all. Learn how to do your own oil changes...and double check the work of your AP like your life depended on it. You cannot believe the bullsh*t you will see on that end.

Other than some of the bad stuff, I would buy a twin again in a heartbeat. Best experience flying I have...problem is, the Regionals don't pay well enough for me to do that again.

Good luck. - Checknsix

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I'll agree with most of what was said above...

As long as you're insured in the airplane, your friend can fly/log all the time they wasnt as long as you're int he airplane. Otherwise, you'll have to add them to the insurance. That may or may not cost money...

Don't skimp on airplanes man. A cheap plane is usually cheap for a reason. Spend the money on a reputable overhaul, get parts from a good parts source, and make friends with the mechanics for your plane. Do not try to always get a "deal" from them--you need the shop to make enough profit to make them want to work on your airplane.

Watch the reccurring ADs, some of those could be pricey.

That said, I've thought about getting a light twin myself (since I make enough to afford one with a partner, perhaps), and the Twin Comanche is hogh ont he list of zippy but less expensive airplanes.

Dan

 

[supsup]

pa30/160

The fbo where i used to teach at had a commanche. In order to rent it the renter had to get there me rating from our company, or have 25 hrs pa30/160 time + 500 TT. I thought it was a great plane for instruction.

supsup

 

[Vik]

Well, a lot of people have talked about things like insurance, etc.

I will most likely have 25-30 hours multi before I get the plane. My budget for insurance is between $5k-$7.5k/yr.

After reading AOPA's Twin Giveaway info, it seems like maybe it might actually not be a bad idea to buy a cheap plane thats falling apart and pay the difference between my purchase price and my budget of $125k to have it restored. That way, at least I know certain things are being fixed and there is no guesswork as to whether the paperwork is valid or not.

The downside is that I don't know anything about aircraft mx, so doing all those things AOPA is doing might be out of my league. I don't need to do everything they're doing but I'd like to get the plane refurbished as much as possible.

I feel a little overwhelmed already from what everyone has told me but I'm determined.

I wonder if there is a place which lists how much engine overhauls cost, repainting costs, installing a Garmin 430 GPS costs, redoing the panel, etc., costs.

I don't want to end up having spent $200k like AOPA may be doing as I don't need a lot of those mods like tip tanks, speed mods, etc., but I do want an airplane in good condition.

Thanks to everyone that replied. I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Sure, start shopping for shops to do the work.

Where I work, we are a TCM dealer, and the prices change all the time. We run sales and promos of all kinds, so the best way to get real info is to go and talk to the local shops.

I'd bet you could easily push 50K for two engines (including hoses and all the "other stuff" that will show up if you replace the engines.

A Garmin 430 would, I bet, cost about 4K for the box, another 2-4K to install. Again, talk to an avionics shop and see what they say. Our shop gives price breaks depending on what you install (say, a 530 and a 430, or a GPS/NAV/COMM and an autopilot...).

It really depends on what you can find. If you could find a clean, straight airframe with old engines/radios--you could be getting a good deal. If you just bought a high time old plane, then you'd help it a bit with new engines and radios, but it'll still have a case of O.P.S. (old plane syndrome). That means that stuff just plain breaks--everything. Be it cowlings (and those pieces of fiberglass are PRICEY), or voltage regulators--they just seem to break more often with old airplanes.

Like I said, go talk to maintenance/avionics shops and see what they say. There is nothing there that you should not be able to understand--if their mechanic can't explain it well enough to you--then they're not the shop for you. Find a good shop, and they should be able to give you much more information than you will know what to do with

If you can find a Twin Comanche owner locally, talk to them. They'll know lots and lots of stuff that you'll want to know. Consider the cost of their lunch an investment--it is.

Dan

PS-the other problem with having a plane "restored" is that you don't know what you'll find. If they find corroded spars, you'll definately be out on a limb (one more reason to get a thourough pre-buy), but it's a calculated gamble.

 

[Vik]

So if my friend is flying it, I'm in the seat next to him, he touches down, the gear collapses (due to reasons out of his control), my insurance will still pick up the tab because I was in the airplane and it was not pilot error?

That is the type of situation I'm concerned about.

I could add them to the insurance if its allowed and if the cost wouldn't be insane (more than $1k/yr).

Thanks for the help.

As long as you're insured in the airplane, your friend can fly/log all the time they wasnt as long as you're int he airplane. Otherwise, you'll have to add them to the insurance. That may or may not cost money...


Dan

 

[XGmaninGA]

Be very. very careful letting someone else even touch the controls on your airplane. Read your insurance documents carefully, If your friend is in the left seat, and you're in the right seat, you may not be covered. Just use caution.

 

[Snakum]

My budget for insurance is between $5k-$7.5k/yr.

We probably have similar times, and I can tell you ... if you need commercial insurance ... this isn't even CLOSE.

Did you plan on leasing it back to an FBO, or conducting intruction in it?

Minh

 

[Vik]

Personal use. Not commercial.

I did find out that both AOPA and AVEMCO allow you to list "approved pilots" that meet the requirements for that aircraft.

We probably have similar times, and I can tell you ... if you need commercial insurance ... this isn't even CLOSE.

Did you plan on leasing it back to an FBO, or conducting intruction in it?

Minh

 

[Snakum]

Personal use. Not commercial.

Kewl

I'll bet you'll have a blast with it. I wish we had been able to move forward with ours, I'd have a few hundred hours of multi by now. The post 9/11 IT melt-down almost shut our doors completely, so I guess I should be thankful to have a job at all.

Ahhhh ... what could have been ...

Best of luck with the twin, and if you're ever in GSO ... can I have a ride in the back?

Minh

 

[FlyingToIST]

Vik,
are you anywhere close to Seattle area?

 

[Vik]

No, but once I get the Comanche (assuming I actually am able to find a worthy aircraft for a reasonable price), Seattle won't seem as far away anymore

Buying a plane sure seems like a lot of homework. Everyone I talk to tell me every dealer is a sleezeball, so be careful. Real encouraging

Vik,
are you anywhere close to Seattle area?