buthole captain

[KSUPILOT]

So Iam flying with this buthole captain this week. He has a serious case of Captainitis. I do not feel comfortable being in the cockpit with him. I could sit here and right a four page letter on why I do not feel comfortable but the biggest thing I am trying to get over is his excessive overkill of command and response. The times he wants to do it scares the piss out of me. Give me your thoughts. He has called for the after takeoff check list between 1,00o and 2ooo feet of the ground coming out of busy airports. Today he wanted to talk about comnad and response at 6,000 feet in the climb coming out of a High dentsity Airport and I refused and called out "Sterile Cockpit". What are your thoughts on the commmand and response overkill?

THanks,

KSUPILOT

 

[Singlecoil]

Your after take-off checklist is command and response? The last two places I have worked that one has been a silent read and do by the PNF.

For some reason, the weakest aviators, and the ones who rigidly adhere to SOP seem to be the ones that are the most annoying to fly with and get into the most trouble. I think it is because they throw the other person's rhythm off so bad or alienate them so much, that they are basically flying single pilot.
Look at it this way. You are tasked with getting the aircraft and the pax safely from A to B. If Captain Jackhole feels he needs to nitpick you or tell you how to fly to keep himself in the loop, then so be it. If you lash out and tell him to shove it, then he'll be out of the loop which is not what you and the pax need. I've tried it both ways. It seems to me that taking the longer view has been more effective.

 

[banned username 1]

Man, if you've got 15,000 hours, that must be purgatory dealing with that. The term reasonable and common sense just aren't that common anymore.

Good luck!

 

[atrdriver]

Last time I flew with a Captain that felt it necessary to nit pick at everything I did I said "your controls". After he took them he asked me why, and I told him I didn't need flight instruction and he could fly the rest of the trip and I would take care of the radios. He said he didn't want to fly all the legs for 4 days, so I told him to keep his opinions to himself unless it involved safety. We got along fairly well after that.

 

[dhc8fo]

What's wrong with an after takeoff checklist after takeoff? Is it normal procedure to do it as challenge/response where you are flying? High density or not, that is when you do the after takeoff checklist...after takeoff. I can only speak for my airline, but challenge/response on most of the checklists is standard. There are some silent checklists too, but if you can't fly, look out for traffic, and do a checklist then you need more practice. Just my opinion.

The sterile cockpit thing is understandable.

 

[aeronautic1]

Nope

after gear up called, we don't do anything checklist-wise until 10,000. Too many other things going on like departing out of TEB? You are right to be cautiously opinionated towards this guy.

 

[146guy]

Since when does sterile cockpit mean a checklist can't be read? WTF? Like someone said above there's no reason why a checklist can't be completed while in the departure segment. BTW our after takeoff checklist is a silent one performed by the PNF, but our inrange and landing checklist aren't silent and of course we are below 10K for the landing checklist.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

after gear up called, we don't do anything checklist-wise until 10,000. Too many other things going on like departing out of TEB? You are right to be cautiously opinionated towards this guy.

No after takeoff checklist until through 10,000? sometimes out of TEB that can take 30 mins...

seems a bit excessive. If one cant run a quick 6 item after takeoff check without getting distracted then one shouldn't be chewing gun, nevermind piloting...

1-2000ft...um...a bit low...yes, but some guys are very impatient, as soon as its cleaned up they call for the list. Just say "I'll get it in a sec" and continue monitoring until you feel comfy doing it.

challenge/response, sterile cockpit....its all good -- but lets use some guddam common sense also!

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Good grief, 15,000 hours and the after-takeoff checklist above 1000 agl is scary? How the heck do you manage to do the before landing checklist when it's busy and you are at 1500' agl? Next thing you know, he'll call for the after-landing checklist while you are still taxiing in!!! The nerve! (BTW...two T's in butthole, since Tonyc doesn't seem to be paying attention today).

 

[ATRCAPT]

How does the old saying go? The sharpest captains are usually the easiest to get along with. In my experience it sure rings true!

 

[ATRCAPT]

....not to say I'm God's gift to the airline world cuz I aint! But I try to be easy to fly with!

 

[gern_blanston]

How does the old saying go? The sharpest captains are usually the easiest to get along with. In my experience it sure rings true!

Amen! Sounds like you need to get some new SOP's and a new captain.
The after-takeoff checklist makes a great PNF-do checklist.
And 'sterile cockpit' definitely doesn't mean 'silent cockpit'.
Good luck.

 

[labbats]

Comfortable captains make for comfortable cockpits.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Amen! Sounds like you need to get some new SOP's and a new captain.
The after-takeoff checklist makes a great PNF-do checklist.
And 'sterile cockpit' definitely doesn't mean 'silent cockpit'.
Good luck.

Agree! If you cannot do an after takeoff checklist when the gear comes up, you have issues.... after takeoff checklist for the 170 for my company is gear confirm up, flaps confirm up OH MY GOD!! THATS TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH

 

[TonyC]

(BTW...two T's in butthole, since Tonyc doesn't seem to be paying attention today).

Sorry, Hugh, but I was busy sleeping in Winterpeg. Fortunately, I can depend on you to take care of such issues, right?


I've never heard of anyone "calling out" "sterile cockpit" to terminate a conversation in which he preferred not to participate. It seems to me - - just my opinion here - - that something along the lines of, "I think we should talk about this above ten thousand" or "Could we talk about this when things get a little less busy" or even "Hey, I really want to understand what you're saying - - could we talk about this after we land?" would be more appropriate than just blurting out, "Sterile cockpit!" I apologize if I misunderstood what you were saying, KSUPILOT, but that's what it sounds like to me.

If the Captain is doing something that is unsafe or violates your procedures, you really should take the time to talk to him about it, not us. If the Captain has personality issues that make it difficult for people to get along with him, you really should take the time to talk to him about it, not us. If it's not unsafe, and if it's not a procedural issue, and if it's not his personality - - in other words, if it's just something that annoys you, then talk away. I'm sure there's plenty of folks willing to offer opinions. Hmmmm. I guess that's what I'm doing right now.

 

[westwind driver]

What's wrong with an after takeoff checklist after takeoff? Is it normal procedure to do it as challenge/response where you are flying? High density or not, that is when you do the after takeoff checklist...after takeoff. I can only speak for my airline, but challenge/response on most of the checklists is standard. There are some silent checklists too, but if you can't fly, look out for traffic, and do a checklist then you need more practice. Just my opinion.

The sterile cockpit thing is understandable.

After takeoff most items are 'memory' and can generally be done by flow, therefore effectively making the after-takeoff checklist just that, a checklist and not a do-list.

I never pick up the checklist after departure until we are radar identified and given a climb to a higher altitude.

After all, how hard is it?

Gear up lights out, flaps up and indicating up, thrust reversers off/unarm, YD/AP (PF's discretion), ignition (PF's discretion) taxi lights off, climb power (PF's responsibility)

Items on the after-takeoff are not safety sensitive generally, therefore it can wait until at least things start slowing down and both pilots are on the same page. The best time to do it is on the way up to or above 10,000 with the autopilot on.

BTW, I run the after T/O, climb, cruise and descent checklists before the other guy asks for it. We use a mix of challenge and reponse and 'if you have time to do it, please do and advise me when it is done and/or the status.'

Alot of times the captain says 'climb check please' and I reply 'complete, all items satisfactory'
Or if I run the checklist without being prompted, I let the other guy know 'climb check is compete.'

 

[typhoonpilot]

I never pick up the checklist after departure

I haven't picked up a checklist in 2.5 years. I do push a button that says checklist on it though . Gotta love modern technology.

I'm with the majority here, an after takeoff checklist isn't that difficult to do. If you happen to be very busy when it is called for, then just delay doing it until you are not as busy.

TP

 

[TIS]

Your after take-off checklist is command and response?

My company's is too. What's the problem with that? It's not that difficult (or that unusual for that matter) if it's your SOP to do it that way.

For some reason, the weakest aviators, and the ones who rigidly adhere to SOP seem to be the ones that are the most annoying to fly with and get into the most trouble. I think it is because they throw the other person's rhythm off so bad or alienate them so much, that they are basically flying single pilot.

So what are you saying here? Are you trying to say that adherence to SOP is a sign of a weak pilot? And this business about rhythm - SOP dictates what the "rhythm" should be. If anyone in the cockpit of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot is thrown by that, they're not qualified, on the most basic level, to even be there.

Having been there I can tell you that SOP will save your butt when you've been flying for many hours to get to BFE and you're trying to make sense of their screwy approach procedure, and trying to avoid their mountains, and trying to understand what they're saying on the radio, and get the sunshade poistioned so that blinding sunrise isn't quite so objectionable while you do all of this. Being able to fall back on something you know like the back of your hand really helps. But maybe that's just me.

If Captain Jackhole feels he needs to nitpick you or tell you how to fly to keep himself in the loop, then so be it.

Exactly! Because ya know what? Sometimes the FOs do things that AREN'T right and sometimes it's the captains. It's the JOB of the other guy to point it out when it happens! It's interesting though, isn't it, how it's always an a$$hole captain who's the problem and not an FO who needs a little more time in seat.

Sorry, but if you can do the job then you have my respect and appreciation. If you can't don't blame me for the things you can't cope with.

TIS

 

[KSUPILOT]

I guess I was pretty hot when I wrote this the other day. Let ME clairfy somethings.

As one person wrote it is more comfortable to fly with a compfortable captain and some of the best are easier to get along with.

The thing about me saying "sterile Cockpit" my exact words were "We can discuss this on the ground, we are almost there" (we were only going from one ny airport to another)

My biggest problem with this guy is I am the rookie and thank God they just got another rookie, but I am the only person who was not cried to the Chief Pilot. When we got to our destination the other day I spoke with him and explained where I am coming from and he explained well it is all sop's. So in a fit of rage I pulled the SOP's out of the closet and handed them to him and asked him to explain call outs that he was demanding and such. He was not able to find them. This is guy who had a midlife crisis and decided to leave his job and join the flying force at 50+ when our company was all new.

He is probaly the weirdest Captain in are fleet. All of the other guys are telling me that I should not be an SIc and should be a captain and my flying is great, even the chief pilots agree. But right now we do not have an opening. 9 planes and too many pics.

As for the 15,000 hours that is a typo from when I opened this accont a long time back it was suppose to say 1,500 but now it is aprox 3,500.

As for the after takeoff checklist I do my normal flow which incorporates everything, and it is known to everyone in our company as a silent checklist. Pretty much that and the cruise checklist are the ones that are not command and response. I mean it is quite simple gear, flasps, valves yaw, apr, sync and ignitions. But he wants me to do a flow and then come back with command and response. I just think that this is way overkill!

Thanks for listening and giving your input.

ksupilot

 

[say again]

After takeoff most items are 'memory' and can generally be done by flow, therefore effectively making the after-takeoff checklist just that, a checklist and not a do-list.

I never pick up the checklist after departure

There's an after t/o checklist?? I thought we just said "checklist complete" to satisfy the feds!!! I'll pick it up- upside down, sideways, just for show of course