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Business Week: Have Airlines Cut to Deep

Andy Neill

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A legislative requirement to raise the qualifications of incoming airline pilots will have the dual benefit of raising the average experience level along with the requirement to increase pay to attract a suffcient number of pilots who meet that criteria. Airlines will still endeavor to pay as little as possible but it will not be possible to keep their pay where it is and still attract enough qualified pilots.

Those airlines that already require ATP level experience for its new pilots will notice no change. Those that hire 250/50 will have to make major changes to make their airline attractive to the 1500/100 pilot. In fact, they may not be able to compete and remain profitable. That is where survival of the fittest comes in.

The airlines can mollify their Finance Officers by saying, "we wanted to keep the pay low, but that darn requirement for all pilots to have at least ATP level experience made us change our pay structure."
 

igneousy2

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Maybe I'm too negative...but I would wager that nothing of substance will come of this...just a lot of talk and hype while the crash is fresh on everyone's mind. Maybe some minor tweaks to the regulations.

Unfortunately, I think we need a few hundred more dead bodies before we get any real substantive change in the fatigue regulations.
 

jumppilot

Something in a box
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Yep. We've seen this before. Public uproar, demand change...then nothing.

I give this two weeks after the latest press release, then nothing.

Just today I was on a Colgan flight - only 3 seats open.

No one cares.
 

Minimaniac

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One thing the media is missing and we keep overlooking on this board is that our unions agreed to this poor first year pay system. Airlines like Delta and Southwest, while having first year pay rates that are considerably lower than second year, at least start out at a livable wage. The companies we work for pay us according to what we negotiate. Yes, 20k a year is an improvement over the companies' first offer, but it is agreed to by our MEC's and then our pilot groups. No law regarding experience is going to impact our mutually agreed upon compensation.
 

turbodriver

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enough
One thing the media is missing and we keep overlooking on this board is that our unions agreed to this poor first year pay system. Airlines like Delta and Southwest, while having first year pay rates that are considerably lower than second year, at least start out at a livable wage. The companies we work for pay us according to what we negotiate. Yes, 20k a year is an improvement over the companies' first offer, but it is agreed to by our MEC's and then our pilot groups. No law regarding experience is going to impact our mutually agreed upon compensation.

chalk another one up to the geniuses at ALPA.....
 

SpauldingSmails

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Yep. We've seen this before. Public uproar, demand change...then nothing.

I give this two weeks after the latest press release, then nothing.

Just today I was on a Colgan flight - only 3 seats open.

No one cares.

Spot on. The media and public will have plenty of outrage, but not nearly enough to want to pay for the actual value of a flight.
 

SSDD

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Yep. We've seen this before. Public uproar, demand change...then nothing.

I give this two weeks after the latest press release, then nothing.

Just today I was on a Colgan flight - only 3 seats open.

No one cares.


HHMMMM! So YOU were on a Colgan flight...

I see some irony in that post!!!
 

SEVEN

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chalk another one up to the geniuses at ALPA.....
Thanks for telling it the way it is. At least there are still those who can see where the big problem lies. As I have said many times before. Unions are destroying the fabric of this society and undermine the capitalistic way of life. In the long run, unions cause way more harm than good. ALPA National must go.
 

BrickTop

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Thanks for telling it the way it is. At least there are still those who can see where the big problem lies. As I have said many times before. Unions are destroying the fabric of this society and undermine the capitalistic way of life. In the long run, unions cause way more harm than good. ALPA National must go.

Lead by the latest example of organized labor failure, the UAW. Blue collar workers extorting white collar wages. Much the same as our pilot unions. EGO driven entitlement.
 

saabservant

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When someone a congressman knows, or a congressman's family gets killed, they will
force the FAA to change, not before....
 

saabservant

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One thing the media is missing and we keep overlooking on this board is that our unions agreed to this poor first year pay system. Airlines like Delta and Southwest, while having first year pay rates that are considerably lower than second year, at least start out at a livable wage. The companies we work for pay us according to what we negotiate. Yes, 20k a year is an improvement over the companies' first offer, but it is agreed to by our MEC's and then our pilot groups. No law regarding experience is going to impact our mutually agreed upon compensation.

So true...and who agrees to low first year pay? ALPA contract administrators, and senior pilots on the MEC.
Major or regionals it's the same attitude. Let junior pay his dues....management wins, again.
 

pianoman

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I am not defending ALPA, but I don't blame it either. A union is a just a representation of its members. I blame the bulk of pilots who will talk big all day long. Then when it comes time to show up for something, elect a rep, or God forbid take some personal responsibility and vote NO on crappy contract, they're nowhere to be found.

Look at CAL- because no one bothered to vote, we got some idiot reps who let a renegade negotiating committee get away with MURDER. Had the pilots recalled (or just CALLED) their reps, they might have fixed the lineup.

Still looking for the pilots who voted YES on CAL's last contract. Only flown with one so far who admits it.
 

cybourg10

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CAL has hired many of our FOs in the past 3-4 years that have no turbine PIC or ATP (the ones I know had about 1500tt with less than 500 121 hrs), some even started on the 777. This is not any safer IMHO. I think we need to raise ATP minimums to 2500 hrs tt and add some kind of turbine requirement to that as well, I don't like the idea of people holding an ATP with nothing but 172 and PA44 time........we all know the ATP checkride isn't that hard or much different than an instrument checkride. Mabye to do an ATP checkride the applicant will have to perform it in some kind of turbine aircraft?
 
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A-V-8

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Just today I was on a Colgan flight - only 3 seats open.

No one cares.



Yep. I was dead heading on a Mesa flight when a passenger said; "Did you hear about those clowns that fell asleep out in Hawaii? Jeezzz I would never fly on that airline.” I just ignored him.
 

Britpilot

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Thanks for telling it the way it is. At least there are still those who can see where the big problem lies. As I have said many times before. Unions are destroying the fabric of this society and undermine the capitalistic way of life. In the long run, unions cause way more harm than good. ALPA National must go.

Unions are destroying the "fabric of this society"? Really? I think there are are lot more forces at work destroying the "fabric" than unions. You sound a little paranoid there brother. ALPA National must stay.
 

jumppilot

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HHMMMM! So YOU were on a Colgan flight...

I see some irony in that post!!!


No irony there. I was commuting home, and I'd commute home on an ultralight if it was the only seat open.

As an airline pilot, I understand the risk. Passengers, who often get scared of the smallest bit of turbulence, have the least understanding of what went wrong that night in Buffalo and should be the first ones to bail from a media-painted unsafe operation (all regionals have the spotlight, not just Colgan).

But, they didn't. No one cares.
 

SEVEN

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Unions are destroying the "fabric of this society"? Really? I think there are are lot more forces at work destroying the "fabric" than unions. You sound a little paranoid there brother. ALPA National must stay.
Not paranoid at all. Just sick and tired of seeing my dues flushed down the toilet. I have stated this many times regarding ALPA National. There is a need for representation in this industry, no doubt. But ALPA has failed the test over and over again. They are NOT representing the interests of the vast majority the pilots. It's time for a change. I predict big changes in ALPA carriers going forward. It's time to vote them out, one airline at a time. They have done enough damage and have proven to cause more harm than good.
 
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