Building Time!!!!

[mcooper]

Let me say straight off, for the purposes of THIS post, I could care a less what people think about the cost of the academies, or what promises they do or don't keep! I have been doing a lot of reading on this site and jetcareers.com lately and know all the different opinions, etc.

That said, my question is mostly for those folks that keep saying the academy is too expensive, there are no guarantees and you could do just as well going the FBO/CFI route. Please, I am looking for ideas, not opinions. There is a fine line.


I am 33. I have just over 200 hours with a PPL-Instrument. I have a family and a successful career for all intensive purposes. However, I have had the desire to make a career of flying since I was probably 10 -12. Without going into all the details of why I didn't do this earlier, all I can say is, I am at a point after 11 years of the corporate world, I want to do what I enjoy instead of doing what makes the most money, but being miserable? Yeah, I know there are a lot of miserable pilots right now too, but that's a different kind of miserable.


Anyway, to my question...(sorry for the long prologue)

With me being 33 and time not on my side, why wouldn't I choose the academy route if there is a chance (notice I said chance people!) that I could get my career in a regional with around 1000/100? There are several examples of people on here and that I've talked to that actually have successfully done the academy route so I know it works in some cases. Once again, I know this is SOME, not all cases.

Personally, I could go out tomorrow and buy into a partnership or buy a slighty older plane to build my time, but by my calculations, that would take a lot longer to built the time that people are saying you would need nowadays not going through the academy. I'd have to be working at my current job still to afford it, so it's not like I could be flying all the time.

If I just went ahead and got my CFII-MEI, quit my job and managed to get a job at an FBO, how long would it take to build the time necessary to have a chance to get on with the regionals?
2, 3, 4 years?

Just a final note...these are not sarcastic questions to voice opinion for the academies and I'm not looking for arguments about whether academies suck, etc. Since there are so many people saying the FBO/CFI route is cheaper/better, I am simply looking for realistic examples/suggestions of how I could get enough hours going the FBO/CFI (or ownership route) where I would have the necessary qualifications to get interest from the regionals in the same timeframe?

 

[hydroflyer]

I did the FBO route and felt I did receive very good quality training. Time has not really been an issue for me and I never considered the academy route so I will stay neutral. It is possible to do the FBO route at an accelerated pace, however I would suggest finding one that is Part 141 (more likely to have a consistent schedule). As far as an FBO competing with the academies for time to a "potential" spot with a regional, hard to say. Likely an academy would be better for what you are looking for due to more people that will personally know you and your performance who have connections with higher ups at a regional. If you go with a FBO, I would ask questions about where the instructors who left there have been going, as often times you will find a good percentage of them going the same places due to connections that have been built. If they are going the same places as you want to go, maybe consider it, but there would need to be more than a just a couple that went off to the same company.

If you are seriously considering doing this, then I would strongly suggest you start reviewing any and all material you've gathered earning your private and instrument. Maybe buy a new PPL and Instrument textbook (or a current edition used) and go through it chapter by chapter. You already have the hardest two out of the way and everything else will be built upon the foundation you've already laid. Whichever route you go, one thing will be the same; if you want to do it fast, you will have to do a lot of self study. Better start now.

 

[Whirlwind]

I know three CFIs who went the local FBO route, they paid a whole lot less for their licenses than the big boys charge, and they are now working for a regional, they were hired three weeks ago.

They all got there with between 1,200 and 1,500 hours total time and between 100 and 200 multi. They got the jobs because they were professional, they networked within the business, and they kept after it.

The pay isn't great flying the right seat of a turboprop, but it is a Part 121 job.

Fly safe!

 

[mcooper]

Followup for whirlwind

Were your friends recent or pre 9/11?

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

Go with the academy, knock your CFIs out of the way in a few months and make sure your savings account will support your familia for a couple of years. And by now you probably have acquired quite a few toys to pay for, so make sure you can live no income.
Still a tough choice, I'd get an aerobatic single and just do it for fun at your age.

 

[WrightAvia]

Followup for whirlwind
Were your friends recent or pre 9/11?

Recent or pre 9/11, what?

 

[WrightAvia]

I mean your question does sort of make sense to me, but doesn't.

Considering it takes 6 to 12 months to get all your ratings at a 141 school, much less how long it takes to go the FBO/91 route. Then build time at 500/700 hours a year. Basic math would say they were PRE-9/11, if you're looking at when they started getting their ratings.

 

[bobbysamd]

Academies

I was about your age when I started flying. I learned under Part 61. It took me a few YEARS to earn my ratings because of my work schedule. I had no designs on a career at the time, so it didn't matter that much; however, I'm convinced that I would have learned more, better and faster had I trained in a more disciplined situation, i.e. a school or academy.

Then, when I went to work flying full-time, I taught at ERAU, which is as much an "academy" as they come. Then, I taught at FlightSafety, which, too, was an "academy." I saw from the other side of the desk how effective academy training can be. So, those are reasons why I like Part 141 flight schools. They are "schools," which imply motivation, hopefully, studying, preparation, and discipline, all of which foster momentum, which, in turn, fosters time-effective training. For these reasons, I think you have the right idea. If I had it to do all over again, I would have opted for full-time attendance at an aviation college to finish my ratings and to earn a second Bachelor's, in Aviation.

In your case, the key would be to get a job instructing at your school. That way, you at least have a fighting chance of building time. If you finish your training fast but cannot find a job, then, as you have observed, you'd be in the same boat as if you went to work at an FBO.

That's my $0.02 on the 141 school route.

One other suggestion for you might be a place like Mesa Airlines Pilot Development . This is a 141 school operated by Mesa Airlines. It is an 18-month program where grads finish with their Commercial-Instrument ratings and an A.S. in Aviation Technology. Grads can interview with Mesa Airlines upon course completion. Contrary to what you might have heard, the only promise Mesa makes to new students is they might get "the interview." The truth is, the interview is yours to lose. You have to screw up badly not to get it, though you have to jump through myriad hoops to get it. I saw it happen, though, with one of my students. The best recommendation for MAPD is that it works.

 

[wingnutt]

what??? when they started their ratings? lol...since when does that question hold any significance whatsoever? for all we know they started their ratings 5 years ago as part time students, but just recently finished.

point being, that normally anytime the 9-11 question has been brought up is in reference to when they were hired. who the heck cares if they started their training prior to 9-11.

so, using that line of logic...

...they were hired three weeks ago.

...perhaps cooper just missed that part

P.S. wright...if your gear went up and down, perhaps it would make more sense

 

[ReportCanoa]

I am 33. I have just over 200 hours with a PPL-Instrument. I have a family and a successful career for all intensive purposes.[/QUOTE

FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES

I HATE WHEN MY FAMILY AND CAREER GET USED FOR INTENSIVE PURPOSES!!

 

[Caveman]

When you cut to the chase it all boils down to one salient point: DCI Academy will guarantee you a legitimate opportunity to get hired at an excellent jet national with only 1200/200. You still have to earn the job but it is a legitimate opportunity. No matter how much money you save by doing the FBO route you aren't going to be hired at a place like Comair unless you are an academy grad or until you get at least 3000 hours and some 121 time elsewhere. If you can afford to go to DCI Academy, do it.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

hey Whirlwind


what ghetto ass regional did your friends get picked up with 1200-1500TT? Gulfstream? GLA??

 

[Mookie]

Another important factor of the "academy vs. FBO" argument is that at an academy, you will be around more people in a given day who are getting hired somewhere. that equals more contacts, more various opportunities. I went to DCI academy, and most of the guys I went through with are with other airlines than comair, and most got their job b/c they flew with someone who was their flight instructor b4 going there. In this job market, contacts are almost as important as a bunch of flight time!!! just to think about....

Mookie

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

what ghetto ass regional

THnx for the laugh

 

[210FR8DOG]

so with 3000/500 can I go to DCI Academy so I can maybe get A F*^&%#$ INTERVIEW??????? How would this work?

 

[jackofdiamonds]

just my 2 cents worth but if you have a good job with MEDICAL BENEFITS (which few people on this board mention) for you and your family then maybe you should just keep flying as a dream. Maybe get one of your kids involved at an early age. If you are 33 then you are looking at a minimum of 8 years or so before moving up to a national or major carrier if things go well. With all the pilots out there both military and civilian looking for jobs the competition is going to be very difficult to say the least. Be prepared to have low pay and long hours for a long long time. Missed birthdays, holidays, soccer games etc. etc. for at least the few years is going to be the norm. I missed four Xmas in row. I am not complaining I did what I needed to do. But I can tell you it put a very HEAVY STRAIN on my marriage. If you are established in a career then maybe just flight instruct or maybe do some part-time 135 stuff for the local fbo!! I know someone who does that and he would rather be an airline pilot but of course but at least he gets to sit right seat in citation ever once in awhile. Once again my 2 cents !! Good luck

 

[350DRIVER]

One other suggestion for you might be a place like Mesa Airlines Pilot Development . This is a 141 school operated by Mesa Airlines. It is an 18-month program where grads finish with their Commercial-Instrument ratings and an A.S. in Aviation Technology. Grads can interview with Mesa Airlines upon course completion. Contrary to what you might have heard, the only promise Mesa makes to new students is they might get "the interview." The truth is, the interview is yours to lose. You have to screw up badly not to get it, though you have to jump through myriad hoops to get it. I saw it happen, though, with one of my students. The best recommendation for MAPD is that it works.

The program has my vote hands down. By far the quickest way to get to a regional present day... Don't believe all the complete bu!!sh!t about "300hour pilots" are unsafe in the right seat of a RJ" blah blah blah... Total nonsense and Mesa has and will continue to prove this to be a "joke" of a statement and completely false. Cheers to Mr. Castle for continuing to prove many wrong.. I seriously would look into this program if I were you.


good luck

3 5 0

 

[mcooper]

ANSWER TO WRIGHTAVIA

My mistake. I missed where it said they were hired three weeks ago.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: Followup for whirlwind

Were your friends recent or pre 9/11?

Recent, in the past three weeks. The jobs are out there, if you really want them, but you have to weed past the masses.

 

[Whirlwind]

hey Whirlwind
what ghetto ass regional did your friends get picked up with 1200-1500TT? Gulfstream? GLA??

What's wrong with Great Lakes???

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

well, i guess nothing is wrong with GLA. but with the market the way it is, and with the time listed above ive seen alot of friends with low time go hit GLA and Gulfstream. Gulfstream is a good way to tarnish your career before it begins. GLA is okay i guess but they dont seem to be going anywhere. You see most regionals moving up in the world. New a/c better routes. GLA is stuck with the 1900 and a few 120's but dont seem to keep any contracts they once had. Dont even get me started on Doug Voss.

a friend of mine flies for GLA. I hear nothing but horror stories. But hey, if you can find a job that will hire a pilot with a CMEL and no multi time whatso ever then that says alot about there company.

 

[Whirlwind]

First, Lrjtcaptain I love your avatar.

Second, maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the reason you took a job like GLA was to get your first tubine time, your first 121 time, and your first non-CFI job. (the pay isn't great, but it is still 50% better than what the CFIs are making down here)

I don't think any of the CFIs who went there did so because they have dreams of flying for them, rather they see it as a stepping stone to something better.

In any case, the route map on their web site seems reasonable in size, and the 1900 is a common enough airplane. It sounds like something reasonable enough to do for two or three years, until something better comes along.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, I don't know the fixed-wing world as well as I do the rotor world.

Fly Safe!

 

[ClassG]

Hired at Great Lakes without mulit time?

It may have happened, but I've never heard of it. EVERYONE I knew there was hired with AT LEAST 100 multi time. The better your training (eg., UND Graduate), the less you needed. But no one I ever talked to was hired with less than 100 MEL.

As for ghetto-ass - NO DOUBT brother. But only in terms of the endless stream of Bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**e you had to be willing to put up with. The people who work there (besides maybe Voss and his lackies), were almost always second to none. And you can't argue that filling a logbook-a-year with PIC turbine time is ever a bad thing.

But the sad truth is that that company will probably never go anywhere while the rest of the industry (regional) seems to thrive - EVEN with Ratheon running the show now.

Out motto: Great Lakes - Flying yesterday's aircraft into tommorow! It'll never change.

All that said, you can't pay enough (PFT pun intended) to get the kind of professional and life experience you get at Lakes in a year or two. To me, it was well worth it.

I'd do it again. Sometimes I wish I had never left there. Life would be good as an instructor/check airman right about now. At least better than flying the Navajo and Tomahawk for pennies a week.

(Just had to defend my GLA brothers and sisters. They may LIVE in the ghetto, but we all go slumming-for-fun every once in a while.)

 

[wil]

I am tired of reading posts by family men who start, "I always wanted to fly..." Well, you have a family now so there is your dream. Fly in your spare time but don't motgage your families future for the "dream" job. I love what I do but it would not be worth sacrificing a family. And, if you think I'm joking in my class of flight students about 8 out of 10 stayed married. That was pre-9/11 when hiring was looking up. If you have a good job, buy a plane and fly for fun and maybe instruct. Sorry to sound negative-

 

[mcooper]

You're tired? I'm tired of reading self righteous posts from a-holes like you, making comments about stuff you weren't asked about! It's pretty fricking easy to say what you say when you're already there! You have no idea about my family and I never said "my dream was to fly". I already do. I also stated that I'm not interested in opinions!

So, I would ask that in the future, you be respectuful of people's posts that are looking for constructive ideas. If you're tired of posts like this then please, STFU, skip them and don't waste your time replying to them if they bother you.

 

[Whirlwind]

Re: Hired at Great Lakes without mulit time?

It may have happened, but I've never heard of it. EVERYONE I knew there was hired with AT LEAST 100 multi time. The better your training (eg., UND Graduate), the less you needed. But no one I ever talked to was hired with less than 100 MEL.

The three CFIs who got hired all had over 100 multi time. The fourth one who went, did not get hired as she only has 60 multi time. But she knew that going, it was mostly to support her friends and to have some fun.

All that said, you can't pay enough (PFT pun intended) to get the kind of professional and life experience you get at Lakes in a year or two. To me, it was well worth it.

So what's the deal? If you've got say, 1,500TT and 150 multi, how hard is it to get hired there?

Does all of that total time have to be in airplanes, or does helo time count?

Fly Safe!

 

[seattle]

Are there ANY happily married (with kids) part 121 pilots out there? Is it really that bad?

If a person isn't happy pushing paper around their cubical shouldn't they at least give flying a try? I'd hate to be at my current desk job 30 years from now without even trying. Y'all can see from my stats that I don't have the "flying-the-line" experience, but I sure do hear a lot about how it's the journey that's fun.

If I do get the chance to fly for GLA, and don't like it, I can always find another desk job.

There's another point for all of us "Career Changers" to keep in mind. We may get started towards one goal and end-up accomplishing something else that is equally rewarding. Who knows maybe part 135, corporate, flight instructing, aircraft sales, or some other type of specialty flying, might just provide the right balance between income and satisfaction we are looking for.

So if there are any family men/women out there, flying at the regionals, what's your secret to keeping all the balls in the air?

Are there some flying jobs that are more family friendly than others........ ok, any that can provide a livable income of about 30 to 40k a year?

Flame suit on, ready for your replies.

Seattle

 

[wingnutt]

Re: Hired at Great Lakes without mulit time?

It may have happened, but I've never heard of it. EVERYONE I knew there was hired with AT LEAST 100 multi time...no one I ever talked to was hired with less than 100 MEL.

lol, yall must be doing some hellacious duty times cause he said in his first post...

Originally posted by Whirlwind
They all got there with between 1,200 and 1,500 hours total time and between 100 and 200 multi.

...me thinks some vacation time is in order

 

[wil]

Seattle- Even at the regional level it is a great job and I feel blessed. I am in the process of moving with my wife to my domicle as commuting stinks as a junior Captain. I have roomies at the crashpad on reserve who see their kids 10 days a month! I don't know how they do it! And, you are right, this career can take you in many directions.

Good luck mcooper- you wanted to fly so bad since 10 that you went out and got a career and family. Just don't end up a statistic. It is not all roses on this side of the fence and I was trying to highlight that fact not slam you.

 

[bobbysamd]

Lakes

I remember when Great Lakes was based in Spencer, Iowa - I assume it is the same GLA that is now in Wyoming. One of my early Riddle students was from Iowa and got a summer internship there. He might have been hired there eventually, too.

I understand that GLA training is extremely tough, as are the working conditions. Also, from what I've read here, a lot of junior-manning. But, as long as it isn't you-know-what and you can put up with it for however long it takes to better yourself, why not?

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.