Boycott Pinnacle Apps

[Flybet3]

Lol

you sick bastard. you are every regional airline managements wet dream!
You sound like AH of Mesa Airline. Willing to strap on those knee pads and start giving head, for what ever it takes to get you in that RJ. You SLUT!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Good one....

 

[Flybet3]

Ok

All you guys out there are not looking at the big picture of our industry right now. Overall, its a money losing industry and pilots think that its as easy as negotiating in order to get paid more. While im not on one side or another, any airline's management has real tough times in the future. Training costs for new hires is an enourmous financial burden for the airlines, and with attrition the way it is, many times they do not make the money they spent on a pilot's training back. If you truly love aviation, and love flying, this is the industry for you. But if you expect to make lots of money, and have job security down the road, maybe you should think of other career opportunities, cause this industry is only going to cause stress. Personally, I plan on investing at least 10 years of my life at my regional airline before moving up to a major. So what's 2 mo's out of that time really going to matter? When choosing an airline, look for job security first. You don't want to have to worry about getting furloghed if you can help it. If that means living on nothing for 2 mo's, then take it by all means. For those of you thinking of applying to Pinnacle, do your homework, but take no shame in sticking out your training cycle without getting paid. Every man for himself in the airline biz!!!

Ok, I can kinda see your point. But even still, if a company has a problem with training their Pilots b/c of money issues than they should not even be running an airline. I guarantee you that if all pilots told pinnacle that they will not work for free, pinnacle WOULD begin paying during training. Secondly not only do you have to slave your self for two full unpaid months, but then you have to take SH!T from idiots like Terry, who dont have a problem letting people go for really stupid stuff.

 

[flyboydh1]

First of all, I could care less about what I fly in the airlines, it makes no difference to me. Most pilots are just not realistic right now. If everyone stopped interviewing because of the pay-for-training thing, you're right, the airline probably would start paying. But now that you've got your paid training finished, the airline wants to slash your wages that you worked so hard to get to because they just don't have money in the bank. Now what? You either compromise your wages or you risk getting furloghed cause they can't afford you. It sucks that we spend so much time and money getting to be airline pilots, just to get slapped in the face with lower paying regional jobs, but that's just being realistic about things. Also, compare airline flying to other jobs out there. How many people in other careers have had internships that they don't get paid for? Isn't that similar to job training in a way? Also, think about how many entrepenuers who have to provide they're own health care, have no 401k or profit sharing agreement, have no travel benefits. I hate when pilots take our job for granted, because in the long run, its a great career.

 

[AZ Typed]

What makes you think 1300 hours is WORTH any kind of paycheck flying jets? And you talk about boycotting? Holy crap man. Get real.

Uh - doesn't the military put lower time guys in jets for twice what a regional-want-a-be makes? Clue me in here...

It's just an airplane man, it goes up and down just like a Cessna.


AZT

 

[cathal]

fly4ever and Towlie- we also got health insurance day 1. Not 90 days after we finished IOE...

 

[airjackson]

Are you kidding? Yank McCock wouldn't have a clue about the military. Probably spent a few years in Canada avoiding it. But he's a tough guy because he can get on his computer and deride those who don't measure up to his twisted ideals; throwing in a comment or two about someones mother for good measure. Yeah he's a real tough guy. Hey McCock, you sir , are a TOOL.

 

[Rook]

I agree to boycott Pinnacle. They are so CHEAP! No pay during training, no hotel, no travel benefits, no use of company copier, etc. Having a shoestring budget will catch up to these Memphis hicks that think they can be an airline. Ever heard of investing in your employees!

Now this made me laugh. Tried to make a copy of some Jepps yesterday with no one in ops mgmt around, didn't have the F'n code to use the copier. Maybe this is something that could be negotiated into the new contract...and new computers to supplant the ones that always lock up when trying to view the porn...I mean weather.

Rook

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I just hope that our negotiating committee is working on this problem in our contract negotiations right now.

PCL_128,

How much of your negotiating capital do you want your NC to use on getting hotels and wages for new hire pilots?

Would you rather negotiating captial be used for a better hourly rate or work rules. With the expansion slowing down how many pilots and for how much longer will there be new hire training. A higher hourly rate and better work rules for the entire pilot group 100% of the time instead of for a small group of new hires at 2 1/2 months maybe better....

I am not saying what you are suggesting is a bad, but there is a big grey picture to consider.......

 

[Dodge]

Someone alluded to this a few posts back. The military puts 0 time pilots (who are no better pilots at 0 hours than anyone else) into jets on day one. And they ain't doing it for free, either. With the correct training, it is very possible for a low time pilot to have good command over a high performance aircraft.

However, the regional airlines are convinced (and they're right) that they can pay squat (or less than nothing if you PFT), give very poor training and have to beat off the people with sticks to do this job for even less.

For all the future airline pilots, grow a pair and have some respect for yourself, or at least get into a profession that you get paid to learn and operate company machines and material.

 

[PCL_128]

Rez, that depends. If we get an unbelievable 1st year rate for the new guys, then I can let the training pay and hotel go. I can't agree to let things continue like they are now though. Our first year FOs have to deal with 2-3 months of no pay and then they don't make any decent wages for several years to make up for it. If the first year rate is industry leading, then I say let the training pay go. If the first year rate is just average, then we need to make sure that the guys in training are paid to help make up for the low first year pay.

 

[Roger Murdoch]

This is my first reply here. I agree that people should stop applying to Pinnacle and Skywest to force their hand to stop this practice. However, I look at it from the standpoint that I got a job at a carrier that does not believe in this practice and I therefore am ahead of the game a little bit. If people feel they can do it, then let them. I don't know about Pinnacle but I've heard good things about OO. One thing is for sure, these companies probably are not getting as many resumes as other airlines. I could be wrong but from reading this thread it sounds like there are some who have not and wil not send them any resumes.
And for flyboyDH who said he looks at it as an investment for ten years so what is a couple of months?
What if they asked you to forgo your first year salary? Would you do it since it is only one year out of ten?
Another thing, you claim that this is a necessary practice given the carriers' financial position, do you believe that from day one, any management position filled has to wait through training before receiving anything from the company. If true, then the company truly beleives this practice, if not, they are only doing this because they know they can and therefore are not very reputable.
Just another pilot giving his 2 cents.

 

[fly4ever]

Towelie,

The per diem at XJ didn't start in training but we were paid two weeks per diem on top of the per diem we started accumulating during IOE. I recall that the two weeks of per diem was a training benefit.

Cathal,

If you sign up to participate in the company health insurance at XJ the coverage begins the first day of the month following the employee's eligibility date (doh). Could be a one day up to a 30 day wait but you are eligible from day one.

 

[Flybet3]

I agree

Rez, that depends. If we get an unbelievable 1st year rate for the new guys, then I can let the training pay and hotel go. I can't agree to let things continue like they are now though. Our first year FOs have to deal with 2-3 months of no pay and then they don't make any decent wages for several years to make up for it. If the first year rate is industry leading, then I say let the training pay go. If the first year rate is just average, then we need to make sure that the guys in training are paid to help make up for the low first year pay.

I see what your saying, and I kinda agree.....ok, lets say that a pilot can live with two months of unpaid training b/c he has a very supportive wife and not much debt, or even if a rich boy gets his parent to pay for his living expenses, or worst case scenario the pilot has to put it all on credit cards, I dont think it would be to bad of a deal if after training you got good pay. But like you said PCL_128, not only do pilots have to endure 3 months with no paycheck, but then have to deal with dumass OE captains (like I did), then deal with stupid management, and then after all this BULSHIAT!!! get a miserable wal-mart looking paycheck!!! I say FUK that and FUK pinchnickle

 

[RampTower]

Someone alluded to this a few posts back. The military puts 0 time pilots (who are no better pilots at 0 hours than anyone else) into jets on day one. And they ain't doing it for free, either. With the correct training, it is very possible for a low time pilot to have good command over a high performance aircraft.

You do have to remember the quality of training at the military level has far higher standards and is structured with much more discipline than the airlines. But it's also like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Fisrt of all, when NWA starts hiring in ??, no one should apply. I hear that you have to put yourself up for the first week or two of training. Principals people, principals. I know that working for a major sounds good and all, but a career at a major is not worth shelling out a few bucks for a room.

Some of you are being short sighted. You can hold out a few more months for a "good" regional, ie AE, XJ, Horizon etc and get pay and a room during training, or you can go to a "bad" regional that doesn't pay during training or a room.

Where do you want to be in 5 years?

If you go to a "good" regional, you will probably still be an FO and maybe upgrade sometime in the near future. But you had your convictions when you started and held out for a job that had pay and a room during training.

Or you can go to a "bad" regional (SkyWest, Pinnacle, etc.) and in 5 years you will probably be a CA with 1-2K hours of PIC, making more money.

Who do you want to be when the hiring picks up again? In the right seat with no upgrade in sight, not even meeting the minumun qualifications for a major?

I've also heard a million times a new hire who has not even started ground school at a "good" regional say that "I'm going to retire here". Give it a few years, it will wear off.

I put some time in at a "good" regional before coming to a "bad" regional. I can say without a doubt that I'm in a much, much better position by doing so.

If you truly do have convictions about the pay and hotel, then do what you have to do. Just promise yourself that, down the road when some of your peers are now flying at CO, SWA, Jetblue, Airtran, NWA, Alaska, and you are still in the right seat, you won't b!tch and moan.

Make a decision.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Someone alluded to this a few posts back. The military puts 0 time pilots (who are no better pilots at 0 hours than anyone else) into jets on day one. And they ain't doing it for free, either. With the correct training, it is very possible for a low time pilot to have good command over a high performance aircraft.


You do have to remember the quality of training at the military level has far higher standards and is structured with much more discipline than the airlines. But it's also like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm also guessing that the screening to be a military pilot is just a bit tougher than a regional pilot.

 

[redflyer65]

Well said Carl. You hit the nail right on the head. You have a problem? Apply somewhere else, but don't b!tch later.

 

[-9Capt]

Just promise yourself that, down the road when some of your peers are now flying at CO, SWA, Jetblue, Airtran, NWA, Alaska, and you are still in the right seat, you won't b!tch and moan.

Make a decision.

If you do make it to AirTran, they'll pay you from day one, but they won't pay for your hotel (assuming training is in domicile).

 

[redflyer65]

Then should we boycott them too? I think it would be great job at Airtran. Is it worth coming out of your pocket for the hotel? That's an individual decision.

 

[Dodge]

I'm also guessing that the screening to be a military pilot is just a bit tougher than a regional pilot.

I agree. I am just saying that training low time pilots to fly fast/complex aircraft to a sufficient level is quite possible and is done on a regular basis. The airlines though, are willing to roll the dice on providing very minimal training to pilots.