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Bombardier New Aircraft

cosmotheassman

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I've been hearing rumors about Bombardier making a new improved larger Lear 60. Anyone know any details??
 

bigepilot

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I heard a rumor it was to be larger than the 60 and referred to as the 70. A salesman with bombardier said "there would be no need to buy another hawker again," if that says something about what it will compete against.
 

rice

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Falcon Capt said:
Was there ever a need to buy a Hawker??? :eek: ;)

Only if you were coming out of a WSCOD:laugh: . Sorry, I just couldn't resist!!!!
 

MajorAv8r

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I hope they put some descent brakes on the "70." I also hope the engineers aren't Bombardier so that it will fly more than three legs with out some mech problem.
 

ultrarunner

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Geez, if the new plane is much larger than a 60, and has more range, you start getting pretty close to the CL-300.
 

HawkerF/O

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bigepilot said:
I heard a rumor it was to be larger than the 60 and referred to as the 70. A salesman with bombardier said "there would be no need to buy another hawker again," if that says something about what it will compete against.
That is unless you need/want customer support. There are a lot of former Bombardier owners flying Gulfstreams, Hawkers, etc because of the headaches that come along with trying to get parts (the right parts), trying to get calls returned, etc. Gulfstream used to be the same way, but they turned things around and should be the standard for other manufactures. With the exception of the CL-30 (Seperate from the rest of Bombardier), Bombardier has a habit of having terrible customer service. If you have to get the folks in Canada involved, be prepared for pure laziness and incompetence. Unless they change that, there will always be a reason to buy another Hawker. My suggestions a few months ago: Let's see if Bombardier was paying attention- http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=723128#post723128
 
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miles otoole

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HawkerF/O said:
That is unless you need/want customer support. There are a lot of former Bombardier owners flying Gulfstreams, Hawkers, etc because of the headaches that come along with trying to get parts (the right parts), trying to get calls returned, etc. Gulfstream used to be the same way, but they turned things around and should be the standard for other manufactures. With the exception of the CL-30, Bombardier has a habit of having terrible customer service. If you have to get the folks in Canada involved, be prepared for pure laziness and incompetence. Unless they change that, there is every reason to buy another Hawker.
My CO. has had nothing but headaches from Raytheon with our HS-125and as such placed an order for the LR 60SE, mainly due to bombardier's fairly decent (Iknow, I know) support of the 45s. They "seem to be" turning the corner from soliciting other operators feedback. There are also a lot of former Gulfstream owners flying Bombardier planes.
 

pilotmiketx

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HawkerF/O said:
That is unless you need/want customer support. There are a lot of former Bombardier owners flying Gulfstreams, Hawkers, etc because of the headaches that come along with trying to get parts (the right parts), trying to get calls returned, etc. Gulfstream used to be the same way, but they turned things around and should be the standard for other manufactures. With the exception of the CL-30 (Seperate from the rest of Bombardier), Bombardier has a habit of having terrible customer service. If you have to get the folks in Canada involved, be prepared for pure laziness and incompetence. Unless they change that, there will always be a reason to buy another Hawker. My suggestions a few months ago: Let's see if Bombardier was paying attention- http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=723128#post723128

Have to take a big disagreement with that. With the exception of the original GX, the aircraft are super reliable and support is first class. The 60 is the Corvette of the corporate jets and pretty bulletproof. I'm pretty certain anything new will have carbon brakes and brake by wire. The 300 has been a dream and the new Globals are supposed to have the bugs worked out with spare parts inventory and AOG issues. No complaints with service or support here.
 
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If you have to get the folks in Canada involved, be prepared for pure laziness and incompetence.


What do you expect from a bunch of stupid French-Canadians ???
 

HawkerF/O

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pilotmiketx said:
Have to take a big disagreement with that. With the exception of the original GX, the aircraft are super reliable and support is first class. The 60 is the Corvette of the corporate jets and pretty bulletproof. I'm pretty certain anything new will have carbon brakes and brake by wire. The 300 has been a dream and the new Globals are supposed to have the bugs worked out with spare parts inventory and AOG issues. No complaints with service or support here.
I agree that the 60 is a nice airplane, but, like any aircraft, it has its own issues (brakes, high ref speeds, etc). My experience with Bombardier has been on Challengers and they are lost when it comes to supporting 601s. Most 601 parts have to be replaced now with 604 parts cause they just quit making 601 parts. It's a joke. I have a friend who was at the SC in Tuscon with his 601 and he spend days, honestly days, on the phone with Bombardier. Tuscon couldn't fix the problem, so Canada got involved. Finally figured out the problem, and Canada shipped the part. Part shows, it's the wrong part. PArt reshipped and show us next day, exact same wrong part. Storied like that are a dime a dozen. What is really funny is that Bombardier was trying to sel them a Global to replace their 601. After this episode, any Bombardier product was taken off the potential list of perspective aircraft to purchase. Falson or Gulfstream will get their business. Bombardier makes great products. The have a unique niche carved out for their market placement of aircraft, but the service after the sale is what makes their great airplanes worthless. The best aircraft in the world is junk if you can't get the manufacture to stand behind it on your terms, not theirs.
 

HawkerF/O

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miles otoole said:
My CO. has had nothing but headaches from Raytheon with our HS-125and as such placed an order for the LR 60SE, mainly due to bombardier's fairly decent (Iknow, I know) support of the 45s. They "seem to be" turning the corner from soliciting other operators feedback. There are also a lot of former Gulfstream owners flying Bombardier planes.
Was it the grounding of the entire LR45 fleet that appealed to your company? I like Bombardiers products, it's the service I can't stand. I have heard some great things about Raytheon in the past few years. Their online parts locator makes things easy. As for former Gulfstream operators flying Bombardier products, you are right. Wal-Mart is one of them. In all fairness, that was before Gulfstreams revamping of support.
 

GVFlyer

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miles otoole said:
There are also a lot of former Gulfstream owners flying Bombardier planes.


Only if they have suffered a reversal of fortune and can no longer afford Gulfstreams.

GV
 

mzaharis

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GVFlyer said:
Only if they have suffered a reversal of fortune and can no longer afford Gulfstreams.

GV

Oh, I'm about to step in it, and I won't be able to scrape it off with a stick, but:

Does anyone know why Larry Ellison switched from a GV to a GEX? He DID have reversal of fortune (50 bil net worth to something like 18 bil), but I don't think that this was the reason.

I'm not trying to get involved in a G vs. B smackdown (I'd be carried out in a stretcher if I was), but I've always been curious, and it seemed germane to this discussion.
 

GVFlyer

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mzaharis said:
Oh, I'm about to step in it, and I won't be able to scrape it off with a stick, but:

Does anyone know why Larry Ellison switched from a GV to a GEX? He DID have reversal of fortune (50 bil net worth to something like 18 bil), but I don't think that this was the reason.

I'm not trying to get involved in a G vs. B smackdown (I'd be carried out in a stretcher if I was), but I've always been curious, and it seemed germane to this discussion.

Gulfstream is not discounting their product, Bombardier is, and these guys are just being business men. Gulfstream is sold out through 2008 and a new G550 will cost you $47.9 million with the Premium Package. You can buy a Global Express XRS for millions less and Bombardier will loan you the money to do so. You can be in a Global years before your Gulfstream could be delivered. Bombardier will also give you top dollar on your trade. The price factors as opposed to value factors can sometimes be very compelling to the bean counters - as in the case of Home Despot.

GV
 

miles otoole

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GVFlyer said:
Gulfstream is not discounting their product, Bombardier is, and these guys are just being business men. Gulfstream is sold out through 2008 and a new G550 will cost you $47.9 million with the Premium Package. You can buy a Global Express XRS for millions less and Bombardier will loan you the money to do so. You can be in a Global years before your Gulfstream could be delivered. Bombardier will also give you top dollar on your trade. The price factors as opposed to value factors can sometimes be very compelling to the bean counters - as in the case of Home Despot.

GV

Premium Package-Is that akin to the Gold Package?
Now, I wonder what the Bombardier canned answer is. I mean, come on G-V, there must be "some" value in having 20% more cabin volume, besides being .05 Mach slower. Anyone know what the backlog happens to be for the G5000?
 

banned username 2

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miles otoole said:
Premium Package-Is that akin to the Gold Package?
Now, I wonder what the Bombardier canned answer is. I mean, come on G-V, there must be "some" value in having 20% more cabin volume, besides being .05 Mach slower. Anyone know what the backlog happens to be for the G5000?
Actually the G-550 is only 0.005 Mach slower (not 0.05 slower as you indicated), however Normal Cruise on both is Mach 0.85...

Also the G-550 (1,895 cu ft) has substantially more cabin volume than the G-V, putting it VERY close to the usable cabin volume of the GEX (2,140 cu. ft.)...

The G-550 has about 250 NM more range than the GEX-XRS...

The G-550 has more thrust (30,770 lbs.) than the GEX-XRS (29,500 lbs.)...

The G-550 (91,000 lbs.) is lighter than the GEX-XRS (98,000 lbs.)...

G-550 (.338:1.0) has much better Thrust-to-Weight Ratio than GEX-XRS (.301:1.0)...

G-550 (5,910 ft.) uses less runway (SL, ISA, MGTOW) than the GEX-XRS (6,190 ft.)

G-550 (Honeywell Primus Epic PlaneView) has much more advanced avionics than the GEX-XRS (Honeywell Primus 2000xp)

G-550 does all this on 8.2% less fuel than the GEX-XRS...

but who's counting... :D

(Geez, I need a drink, I am starting to sound like GVFlyer!!!):eek:
 
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EngineThunder

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The rumor is that they are going to take the Lear 45 wings and brakes and stick them on a 60 fuselage. That was the buzz when I was out at ICT picking up an airplane.
 
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