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Boeing KC-767 update

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MercuryPilot

Go NAVY! Beat Army!
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Posts
117
Boeing deal with Pentagon worth $16 bil.

May 24, 2003

BY LYNN SWEET Sun-Times Washington Bureau Chief

WASHINGTON--After last-minute haggling cut the price 12.5 percent, the Pentagon announced Friday a controversial $16 billion tentative deal for the Air Force to lease airborne refueling planes from Boeing.

The pending leases for Chicago-based Boeing were deplored by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) as "favoritism to a single defense contractor'' because, he said, it would be cheaper to buy new planes or modernize the aging fleet of KC-135 tankers.

Boeing had considerable political muscle behind its bid, with House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) its central champion. Hastert brought up the Boeing leases multiple times in conversations with the president, vice president and defense secretary, his staffers said.

White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card called Hastert near 7 p.m. Thursday to tell him that the White House was signing off on the lease plan, said Hastert spokesman John Feehery.

The anticipated agreement provides for leasing 100 KC-767 aircraft from Boeing for six years, with the first planes delivered in 2006.

The lease price is $131 million per plane, with an additional $7 million for financing costs.

The deal may amount to less than $16 billion, depending on costs, the Defense Department said. The Air Force could buy the planes for $4 billion when the lease ends in 2017.

At present, the Air Force has 544 of the KC-135 tankers, bought from Boeing between 1957 and 1962. The tentative deal covers the lease of 100 commercial Boeing 767s to be built in Everett, Wash., then flown to Wichita, Kan., for modifications to make them combat refueling tankers. In Defense Department jargon, the "K" designates a tanker and the "C" marks a cargo plane.

Boeing agreed to a lower price for the leases at the insistence of the White House Office of Management and Budget and after the Pentagon changed some specifications and dangled a sweetener for the company, the prospect that it may eventually build and lease more than the 100 planes that will be ordered.

"This could easily grow beyond the current number,'' Philip M. Condit, Boeing's chairman and chief executive officer, said in an interview with the Chicago Sun-Times. "So in that sense, it is an extremely important contract."

"The speaker played an extraordinarily powerful role," Condit said. "He understood the importance of getting new tankers into the inventory."

Boeing landed on Hastert's radar after the company moved its world headquarters from Seattle to Chicago in 2001.

"The first order of business is, is this the right thing for the country?" Condit said. "I think the second piece clearly is, he is supporting a company that is there in Chicago, and I think that is important as well."

Citizens Against Government Waste, a taxpayer watchdog group, said in a statement that the Pentagon caved in to political pressure by approving the deal it calculated to be worth $21 billion, instead of refurbishing the existing fleet.

McCain said "every analysis has shown that it would be considerably less expensive to either modernize our existing tanker fleet or purchase new tankers. The only reason to lease new tankers is that they are more, not less, expensive and, thus, a greater windfall to the Boeing Co."

Negotiations over the tanker leases have dragged on for 20 months.

Triggering the debate was the passage by Congress, with a boost from Hastert, of legislation specifying that new tankers would be leased, not purchased, and would be manufactured by Boeing.

The negotiations started to conclude 2-1/2 weeks ago when the Air Force and Boeing shook hands on a deal with a base price of $146.5 million per plane.

The Office of Management and Budget said that price was too high and Boeing dropped to $134 million.

The budget office insisted on yet another price cut and the final price went down to $131 million, with the understanding that Boeing may get more than the original 100 orders.

"We're not going to stop at 100,'' said Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Edward C. "Pete" Aldridge on Friday.

Boeing's profit is supposed to be capped at 15 percent of the deal. Boeing is forming another company to actually own and lease the planes, which officials called a nonprofit trust.

Boeing stock closed at $29.99, up 89 cents.
 
This is such a ruse!

My last assignment was doing functional check flights (FCF's) on Pacer CRAG modified -135's and as such, had close contact with the -135 engineers and project managers at Tinker AFB. Without exception, they all agreed that the current fleet has at least another 20 years of life, that corrosion is a problem but one that is manageable, and that the 767-200 as proposed would not be able to carry the same amount of fuel over the longest distance that the -135 can (however, the aircraft are rarely flown fully loaded at max range so that last point is more a bragging right). The -135 is one of the most reliable aircraft in the AF, although I imagine spare parts will become more scarce in the years ahead. So, basically the AF could buy fewer of the 76's as the existing -135's could last as long as it would take to more slowly buy 100 new tankers than lease all at once at a higher amortized cost. But this wouldn't be the first time the military-industrial complex influences a less than optimum decision. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to fly a 767 tanker in a few years but before 9/11, the AF placed a new tanker pretty low on its need list and all of a sudden it has changed its mind. HMMMMM.....
 
Just a dumb fighter guy wondering here, but...

Aren't they only talking about replacement of the E-model fleet with this lease, though?

While the points about Pacer CRAG 135s are, I'm sure, true...are those depot engineers talking about Es or Rs and Ts?
 
you're correct

The engineers WERE speaking of the R & T models and yes, it's been about a year, but there was the plan floating around that the 767's would go to active units, who would give their R's to E model equipped Guard/Reserve units. I'm not saying the 767 would not make a good tanker, but the fact remains that, after several studies over the last decade, there was very little importance put upon replacing the -135 before 9/11 and Boeing's misfortunes...
 
We can all thank Mrs. Tom Daschel (Linda Hall Daschle,
Boeing lobbyist) for this great deal.

This is almost as good as the AF retiring out all A-10s by 2004 for a couple of big $$ F-22s that we don't need. I sure will enjoy seeing those F-16s under 10,000 ft in their new CAS role.

I guess we can always hope the Army will still get a shot at taking over the A-10 and AC-130 gunship program.
 
DaveGriffin said:
We can all thank Mrs. Tom Daschel (Linda Hall Daschle,
Boeing lobbyist) for this great deal.


Let's see... The Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the White House, but the wife of a Democrat has enough influence to ram through a $16 billion spending bill? Are you sure its not Bill Clinton's fault?
Maybe the fact that the Speaker of the House and Boeing are both based in Chicago had a little to do with it. Hastert was on record as a big supporter of this purchase.
 
I guess we can always hope the Army will still get a shot at taking over the A-10 and AC-130 gunship program.

Long overdue!

Minh
(Formerly Protected By Same)
 
Singlecoil said:
Let's see... The Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the White House, but the wife of a Democrat has enough influence to ram through a $16 billion spending bill? Are you sure its not Bill Clinton's fault?
Maybe the fact that the Speaker of the House and Boeing are both based in Chicago had a little to do with it. Hastert was on record as a big supporter of this purchase.

Until 2004 it will be very close on contested issues. The Republicans can't get anything through without some support from the Dems. Just look at the Tax Cut...with the 3 GOP defectors it took some Dem cross-overs and the VP to break the tie.

In any event Ms. Daschel is the wheel greaser; $$ talks and BS walks. Hastert pimped us on this one.
 
Singlecoil said:
Let's see... The Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the White House, but the wife of a Democrat has enough influence to ram through a $16 billion spending bill?

Uhh, you might want to read that constitution again... it takes 60 votes to "control" the senate. One senator can hold the hold the entire senate hostage until 60 others decide its time for him to shut up.
 
Spur said:
Uhh, you might want to read that constitution again... it takes 60 votes to "control" the senate. One senator can hold the hold the entire senate hostage until 60 others decide its time for him to shut up.

Could you give a reference on where in the Constitution this is found?
 
Spur said:
Uhh, you might want to read that constitution again... it takes 60 votes to "control" the senate. One senator can hold the hold the entire senate hostage until 60 others decide its time for him to shut up.

So why did Dick Cheney cast the "tie-breaking" vote on the latest tax cut when the Senate was split 50-50?

A filibuster is seldom used, but you're right, it can be the ace in the hole for the minority party.
 
Money, politics and the military

(Huey Pilot plugs both ears)

"Please make it stop! Please!"

I can't stand back-and-forth political arguing, because neither side is ever truly right.

All political entities (Democrats and Republicans included) have very keen ways of adding PORK into all bills, no matter who controls what.

If you haven't noticed, 9/11 was the Grand-daddy of all excuses to pass all kinds of useless pork. The US Government is currently buying millions of dollars of stuff that has a dubious requirement.

I'll agree that SOME of the KC-135 fleet needs to be retired, and ask any tanker pilot and they'll tell you it would be nice to have some added capability. Do we absolutely need the 767 tanker? Not just yet. Is it desirable? Yes, it is. The E-model tankers are very old, and they are running out of parts for those old TF-33 engines. Why spend all the extra money putting new engines on a 50-year old airframe when they can spend a little more and not only get brand new tankers, but get some added airlift capacity to boot?

All in all, you can argue that the Air Force needs the 767 tanker about as bad as they need an "F/A-22" fighter. If you ask me, the F-22 was turned into the F/A-22 to give it the "multi-role" excuse to keep the program viable. I've seen the proposed bomb loads of this new "multi-role" fighter and it's not all that impressive. I'm sure B-2 and B-1 pilots are laughing hard. F-15E pilots are probably rolling their eyes.

It's about like calling an AIM-9 armed A-10 a "multi-role" fighter just because it has a token air-to-air capability. What a joke.

No offense to F-15C drivers...in fact your job is an important one, but the role of Air Superiority has lessened in these times since the old Soviet Union has gone away. There just aren't many air arms out there that can put up much of a fight. 95% of the Air Forces in the world are primarily only useful against non-superpower neighbors (ie India v. Pakistan, Ecuador v. Peru, etc). So it's not suprising that the DoD just doesn't have a requirement for a huge fleet of Air Superiority fighters. And when they threatened to hack the order even further, the USAF decided to magically make the Raptor a "multi-role" fighter, thus giving it a perceived greater role. But wait, I thought the F-35 was the new multi-role ground attack aircraft? Doesn't making the F-22 the F/A-22 sorta make the F-35 a bit moot?

I don't know...I'm just up on my soap box. Nothing against fighter guys, but it seems every other airframe community (helos, heavies, etc) have to deal with 1960s or earlier airframes in their fleets, yet the fighter community moans and groans because (gasp) their airframes were developed in the 1970s and the bulk of the aircraft were made 15-20 years ago! (1980s and 1990s). True, the F-15 first flew in 1972. True, the first F-16 flew in 1976. But nearly all the active airframes in service are F-15C and F-16C models, which didn't start production until the early 1980s. The average age of the F-15 is like 15 years, and the average F-16 is like 10 years old. Not too bad actually.

Consider that the average active C-130 was produced in the late 1960s, the average active C-5 was made in the early 1970s, the average KC-135 was made in the late 1950s. Our "new" aircraft include the KC-10, produced in the late 70s and early 80s, and the small but rapidly growing C-17 fleet, which AMC jealously fights to continue to expand. If it weren't for the pork barrel saviors, the C-17 would probably get trampled by the F/A-22.

And it's not something I blame on fighter pilots...they don't have much to do with it. But since the majority of the USAF leadership has a background with the old TAC and the small "fastmover" community, that's where the money seems to gravitate to naturally.

It's not much different than the Army. As an Army aviator, I remember very vividly that we had to fight tooth and nail for each dollar. The Army is run by infantry and armor grunts, and of course they would like to see the money spent on their communities instead of aviation.

Luckily for the Navy, naval aviators pretty much run the Navy, and the carrier is now the centerpiece of the fleet. So of course they don't have as many funding problems.

Politics plays a big role in our military spending, and again, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, there's a way to sneak in your special interest one way or another.
 
Andy Neill said:
Could you give a reference on where in the Constitution this is found?

Section 5, clause 2 gives each house the ability to write its own rules. The senate allows unlimited debate, but provided an "escape" with rule 22, which allows 3/5 members to vote to end debate and proceed with a vote.
 
I understand the Rules of the Senate. However, I think this falls short of a Constitutional reference. Thanks none the less.
 
Re: Money, politics and the military

HueyPilot said:
(The average age of the F-15 is like 15 years, and the average F-16 is like 10 years old. Not too bad actually.

Consider that the average active C-130 was produced in the late 1960s,

I don't think the issue here has ever been airframe life (except perhaps with a few exceptions). IMHO, it all has to do with capabilities -- making sure there are better radars, better avionics, better defensive suites, better munitions.

As the threats develop, so must our ability to operate in and against those threats.

While airframes may be able to live decades, the technology sitting in those airframes is short lived.
 
DaveGriffin said:
I guess we can always hope the Army will still get a shot at taking over the A-10 and AC-130 gunship program.

Having flown in the Army for 5 years, this would definately NOT be a good thing. . . .

The U.S. Army is all about infantry, tanks, and artillery. Anything with wings or rotors is used to extract money out of Congress to divert to the ground forces . . . .
 
This reminds me of the Gulfstream debacle several years ago when the Air Staff, AMC and 89th got a new type of A/C shoved down their throats without anyone having asked for it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the 767 procurement in question is not in response to any specific DOD published request, study, requirement or RFP. In other words pure, unadulterated pork.

While I'm sure the 767 would make an excellent tanker, our elected officials and military leaders have a duty to perform some sort of moral due diligence here.

If the issue here is the E-model tankers, then let's take a look at the 7Q7 conversion. Four brand new JT8D-219's with TR's, total cost per airframe of 25 million. (This solves all the TF33 issues with not only the -E's, but the AWACS, RC's and EC's also.) Compare the costs of modification with this lease. 25 million per airframe plus spares, vs. 23 million a MONTH for a LEASE!

I got to watch the maiden flight of Omega's re-engined demonstrator in San Antonio. No smoke and the jet lept off the runway at a climb angle reminicent of the R model. This on a 707-330C airframe, which weighs a bit more than the KC-135.

Oh well, our tax dollars at work. Let us not forget that it was an aide who toned down Eishowers remarks, which the old man originally penned as "the military, industrial, CONGRESSIONAL complex." (emphasis added)

Here's a blasphemous question: Do we have any real leaders in the air staff who are willling to speak out publicly against such pork? Surely some four star has the integrity to sacrifice the last year or two of his career in order to do the right thing. Just a rhetorical question, I understand all too well how things at the pentagon work.
 
LJDRVR said:
Compare the costs of modification with this lease. 25 million per airframe plus spares, vs. 23 million a MONTH for a LEASE!

Well, I'm not a math major, but:

$138 million/aircraft for 6 yr lease +
$40 million/aircraft to buy at end of lease
= $178 million

$178 million / 6 years => about $30 million per YEAR.
 
UHHH...lazy pilot math

Yeah Spur, I messed that up. I didn't factor in the purchase cost and should have typed 23 million a YEAR. I'm even less of a math major than you dude.

Mud Eagle, I honestly don't know. According to a previous post by a tanker pilot, the 135 has more lift/range than the 767 as proposed. He also said they are rarely flown that way. According to the civilian press, the Air Force didn't ask for this airframe at all. My point here is I think we should avoid corporate welfare for Boeing unless two conditions are satisfied:

-That AMC has a valid need for the 767, with procurement initiated through proper channels instead of at the beheast of Illinois and Washington Congressmen.

-The current tanker MWS is updated to its most complete potential/longest life. (Pacer CRAG, 7Q7, FSAS, CFM's, etc..)
 
Last edited:
Chunk said:
The designation's not going actually be KC-767 is it?

Found this Chunk:
http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/nonstandard-mds.html#_MDS_KC767
In September 2002, KC-767A was officially approved as the designation for the projected Boeing 767 tanker conversions to be leased by the U.S. Air Force. Instead of using the next number in the C-series and designating the aircraft as KC-42A, the manufacturer's design number was used.

The MDS request from the CDARA (Commercial Derivative Air Refuelling Aircraft) program office to the USAF Nomenclature Office, dated 6 August 2002, says:

The CDARA Team requests approval for the model designation of KC-767A for the subject aircraft. We understand the next available MDS designator for this type of aircraft is KC-42A. However, Air Mobility Command, the using command, has requested an out of sequence designator of KC-767A for this aircraft.
[...]

As usual (nowadays), the Nomenclature Office stated their objection when forwarding the request to HQ USAF, and included the paragraph:

According to AFJI 16-401, KC-767A is a nonstandard designator. This aircraft should be assigned the MDS of KC-42A.

Also as usual, HQ USAF ignored the objection, and confirmed the KC-767A designation on 18 September 2002 with the words:

As approving authority for Mission Design Series (MDS) designators, we approve MDS designator KC-767A [...]

I also found something about a KC-747, but that's unrelated.
 

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