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Big Unions: Introduce an Act the Would Release Aviation from The Railway Labor Act

Voice Of Reason

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Maybe I've missed a class in government, but I am wondering why gigantic unions like ALPA, with all their lobbyists, haven't done anything toward eliminating the Railway Labor Act from pertaining to aviation?

That is one of the single biggest hindrances to this profession, (and now that out goverment is controlled by a union-approved and supported group), why has this not happened in ALL these years????

Why not lobby for the elimination of it and creation of a more applicable system (and more labor friendly) that does not exempt its workers from the basic privileges and work rules most other occupations are privy to.

Why is it acceptable to not be paid during ALL hours of duty? (Note: per diem is not hourly pay, it is per diem). How is there not rioting in Washington over this insane travesty?

THIS is the biggest issue you should be demanding that your unions immediately force their PAID LOBBYISTS (who no doubt have politicians in their pockets who can take it to the finish line) to aggressively pursue full time.

PASS IT ON and do NOT let it die....if everyone keeps this in the forefront and not hold an apathetic attitude this CAN be changed!
 
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ACL65PILOT

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From what I have been told it is fear of the unknown.
I know that a lot of people in ALPA that I have talked to are worried that the new law would be a lot worse to deal with than the RLA.
 

Muskycat

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Maybe I've missed a class in government, but I am wondering why gigantic unions like ALPA, with all their lobbyists, haven't done anything toward eliminating the Railway Labor Act from pertaining to aviation?

That is one of the single biggest hindrances to this profession, (and now that out goverment is controlled by a union-approved and supported group), why has this not happened in ALL these years????

Why not lobby for the elimination of it and creation of a more applicable system (and more labor friendly) that does not exempt its workers from the basic privileges and work rules most other occupations are privy to.

Why is it acceptable to not be paid during ALL hours of duty? (Note: per diem is not hourly pay, it is per diem). How is there not rioting in Washington over this insane travesty?

THIS is the biggest issue you should be demanding that your unions immediately force their PAID LOBBYISTS (who no doubt have politicians in their pockets who can take it to the finish line) to aggressively pursue full time.

PASS IT ON and do NOT let it die....if everyone keeps this in the forefront and not hold an apathetic attitude this CAN be changed!

It gives the union(s) the right to strike. Think you want to lose that right and go to "Baseball Arbitration Style" tactics?
The threat of a strike is the only real power against renegade management types the union has. And even then it takes years to impose it if the president allows it.
 

dispatchguy

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What good is a right if you can never exercise it? All a mediator has to say is "nope, no impasse here" and well, you cant start the 30-day clock to self-help.

The unions right to strike is hollow at best...
 

Max Powers

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Maybe I've missed a class in government, but I am wondering why gigantic unions like ALPA, with all their lobbyists, haven't done anything toward eliminating the Railway Labor Act from pertaining to aviation?

That is one of the single biggest hindrances to this profession, (and now that out goverment is controlled by a union-approved and supported group), why has this not happened in ALL these years????

Why not lobby for the elimination of it and creation of a more applicable system (and more labor friendly) that does not exempt its workers from the basic privileges and work rules most other occupations are privy to.

Why is it acceptable to not be paid during ALL hours of duty? (Note: per diem is not hourly pay, it is per diem). How is there not rioting in Washington over this insane travesty?

THIS is the biggest issue you should be demanding that your unions immediately force their PAID LOBBYISTS (who no doubt have politicians in their pockets who can take it to the finish line) to aggressively pursue full time.

PASS IT ON and do NOT let it die....if everyone keeps this in the forefront and not hold an apathetic attitude this CAN be changed!

The reason is simple.....They knew there wasn't a chance in He!! of it passing with GWB at the helm and when Clinton was in office the Senate and House of Reps. was republican controlled.

Now we have the supporters in the right positions to get this thing done. NOW IS THE TIME FOR UNIONS TO get back the CEO's bonus and put it to work for themselves.
 

BOOZENEWS

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enough
It gives the union(s) the right to strike. Think you want to lose that right and go to "Baseball Arbitration Style" tactics?
The threat of a strike is the only real power against renegade management types the union has. And even then it takes years to impose it if the president allows it.

Doubt seriously this would happen with the dems controlling the house, senate and WH.

Drastically altering or elimination the RLA needs to be a top priority in the next 2 yrs.

With dems controlling everything there is no reason why it can't be accomplished.
 

BOOZENEWS

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Now we have the supporters in the right positions to get this thing done. NOW IS THE TIME FOR UNIONS TO get back the CEO's bonus and put it to work for themselves.

Exactly. Get your butt to work ALPA.
 

ualdriver

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So why are you posting this here?

Last I checked, I believe that ALPA's pilots provided direction to its respective MEC's and then that direction flowed upward to ALPA National. I assume all of you that took the time to post here about desiring changes in the RLA have also written the appropriate resolution so that your leadership, who probably don't read flightinfo.com, know what you want? I imagine such a resolution would pass unanimously, and you don't have to actually show up for a Union meeting to floor a resolution.
 

Donsa320

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The law of unintended consequences

You proponents of getting out from under the Railway Labor Law might want to consider this.

Any Tom, Dick, and Harry union would then be free to strike when ever they wanted. How would you like to be out of work frequently because the mechanics or the flight attendants or the rampers decide to strike.

The chaos would be worse than what you have now. The reason for the Law in the first place was to keep the railroads running. Before highways were built the only intercity traffic was on the railroads. The early airlines were closely controlled by the Commerce Department and then the CAB. If an airline went on strike many cities would have no service at all since many places only had one airline serving it much like only one railroad in town. Authorizing a substitute carrier was slow and cumberson. That era is over but if you want to be off the payroll frequently because some other labor group on your airline decides to strike, well go for it. Lose the protection that the RLA provides you and that would be the result. IMHO.
 

Caveman

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Last I checked, I believe that ALPA's pilots provided direction to its respective MEC's and then that direction flowed upward to ALPA National. I assume all of you that took the time to post here about desiring changes in the RLA have also written the appropriate resolution so that your leadership, who probably don't read flightinfo.com, know what you want? I imagine such a resolution would pass unanimously, and you don't have to actually show up for a Union meeting to floor a resolution.

Age 65 was opposed by the majority of members and yet ALPA National supported it. That hardly supports your bottom up theory.
 

A-V-8

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How does one go about making this ALPA's agenda?

I have wondered for a long time. The abuse of the RLA during the Bush administration was despicable. We need to stop the RLA in its tracks. If lobbying will not work then all it takes it the threat of a national strike. I know that it is illegal. Just have the attorneys draft the paperwork that no employer can sue the employees. Make each one sign the doted line or none of us return to work. Get all of the other unions on board and then presto. The timer starts toward the strike. Repeal the RLA or we reap havoc. What do you think will happen in this administration? The American public is already fed up with CEOs and their bonuses. The majority of them will take our side of this issue.
 

ualdriver

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Age 65 was opposed by the majority of members and yet ALPA National supported it. That hardly supports your bottom up theory.

And I've written lengthy posts that described why I think Age 65 happened. I'll state again, after having talked to my MEC legislative reps., and after hearing Prater's answers to my MEC's questions in open session, I don't believe ALPA had the political power to stop Age 65 this time. It was a political battle, and unfortunately ALPA lost that one.

Just because the members of a union, or a state, or whatever group direct its political representatives in a certain direction doesn't automatically mean that organization always gets its way. And when that political loss does happen, that doesn't mean that said organization will be useless for all future political endeavors and we should all just give up.

The ATA is a strong political force in the halls of Congress that lobbies on behalf of our airline CEOs. In its history it has had many political failings. In the future, it will have more political failings. Do you think that when the ATA has had its failings in the past, that our airline CEOs were stupid enough to flip the ATA organization the finger when they didn't get their way? Hell no. They realize the power of being organized and speaking with a unified voice and press on. However, when ALPA has its failings, we pilots MF ALPA left and right, split off, start little unions or don't organize at all- much to our detriment.

So if your insinuating that ALPA suffered a political loss concerning Age 65 despite its membership's direction and therefore ALPA is no longer politically useful because it suffered this political loss (and heck, others), I think your logic is flawed.
 
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A-V-8

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Any Tom, Dick, and Harry union would then be free to strike when ever they wanted. How would you like to be out of work frequently because the mechanics or the flight attendants or the rampers decide to strike.

That’s where you and I differ. I am willing to take that risk. Airlines in other countries exist without the RLA. It is an American law not an international law. O yea and they make more than we do. We buy cheap stuff from China because labor is so cheap over there. Their pilots make 2-3 times what we make. We are the child laborers of the airline industry. Does that sit well with you and your family? Not me. My wife is a teacher. Since I started this if you subtract the cost of my ratings and add my salary she has brought home $191,000 more than me. Everyone in this country thinks that teachers are under paid. I am just as educated as she is. Her peers are shocked when she tells them that she makes more than me. A lot more.
Those labor groups that you mention can be replaced easily. Not pilots. It takes months. We have much more to gain than the other mentioned labor groups. You can train a ramper in a few days. FAs could be ready before the cooling off period is over. Pilots take months. If you are scared then be scared. I want to demand what I am worth. I can’t right now because of the RLA.
I want this to be ALPAs agenda and I want them to get the other pilot unions on board. Get it repealed or we organize and make you repeal it.
 

FR8mastr

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I dont know what makes some of you think the Dems are so labor/union friendly. Because they say they are?
Who was in charge when China was given most favored trading status? Who was in charge when NAFTA was enacted? Which president ordered AA back to work when they were to go on strike?
I guess if you believe that the outsourcing of most the jobs (union jobs) in this county is labor friendly than your argument holds water.
I'm not saying by any stretch that the Republicans are any better, but to think the paid off dem is better than the paid off repub. is just delusional.
 

Lolikoka

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National Labor Relations Act

As mentioned above, the rationale for applying the Railway Labor Act to airlines has been obsolete since shortly after deregulation. Applying the National Labor Relations Act to airlines would be a possibility, but there are ramifications. Such as: Contract "expires" and I think both sides can resort to self-help immediately, meaning management can impose a new contract and the pilots can strike. Under the RLA neither side can change the work-rules or compensation in a unilateral manner. It's a gamble under the NLRA - pilots would either live with changed pay and/or changed work-rules, or they go on strike. Do they have the unity? Does management have the cash to withstand the strike? Would the fee-for-departure contracts be re-written to allow the legacy carrier out of the contract if the regional faces a strike? It would likely be a painful transition for the first ones to try it, until both sides learned to game the system. I don't like the RLA, but at least the game is well known to both sides.

I don't know the answer to beating our frustrations with the RLA.
 

~~~^~~~

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ALPA PAC is important.
 

FDJ2

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Age 65 was opposed by the majority of members and yet ALPA National supported it. That hardly supports your bottom up theory.

Actually, the majority of ALPA pilots surveyed supported having a say in the new law if it was inevitable that the age 60 rule was going to change. ALPA did the right thing for it's members, the law was changing, with or without ALPA. You can get run over by the train racing down the tracks, or you can get onboard and help drive the train.
 

Hamburger

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I am wondering why gigantic unions like ALPA, with all their lobbyists, haven't done anything toward eliminating the Railway Labor Act from pertaining to aviation?

They're too busy pushing for Age 65 even though the majority of their membership was against it.

Actually, the majority of ALPA pilots surveyed supported having a say in the new law if it was inevitable that the age 60 rule was going to change.

Notice how in the PUSH POLL you are referencing, they never actually asked if it was supported on just it's merits? Not any need really, they had three previous polls that clearly stated the will of the membership. Tacking on a condition that it was "inevitable" to twist the question is a move only a fool couldn't see through. The whole point of any political or labor organization is to stand up against things that others declare inevitable.

ALPA PAC took a lot of income from me with that move and they will never see another cent.
 
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Max Powers

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You proponents of getting out from under the Railway Labor Law might want to consider this.

Any Tom, Dick, and Harry union would then be free to strike when ever they wanted. How would you like to be out of work frequently because the mechanics or the flight attendants or the rampers decide to strike.

The chaos would be worse than what you have now. The reason for the Law in the first place was to keep the railroads running. Before highways were built the only intercity traffic was on the railroads. The early airlines were closely controlled by the Commerce Department and then the CAB. If an airline went on strike many cities would have no service at all since many places only had one airline serving it much like only one railroad in town. Authorizing a substitute carrier was slow and cumberson. That era is over but if you want to be off the payroll frequently because some other labor group on your airline decides to strike, well go for it. Lose the protection that the RLA provides you and that would be the result. IMHO.

WOW....You are looking at this through short-sighted and fearful glasses. Mechanics and rampers are easy to replace if they choose to strike. Just look at NWA 4000 mechanics leave and NWA hardly missed a beat, completion factor after one week was hardly changed.

Pilots on the other hand you can not replace, this gives us leverage in negotiations. No one is saying we are going to walk out the next day, if this thing passes, but some profitable companies are going on five plus years past amendable date. Enough is enough. Every other industry has the right to self-help without the RLA to hold them back - it's now our turn.
 
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