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Big Netjets decision...Need Help!

WillFlyFoCookie

On Wisconsin
Joined
Jun 23, 2004
Posts
104
Total Time
3500
Of all places I'm turning to Flightinfo for advice on my career! I'm just at somewhat of a stalemate right now and usually have a hard time deciding what's the best career path for me. Here goes:

I currently work at a very small 121 company and live close to where I'm based. I'm the typical relatively young and relatively starving FO. In about a month I'll be in upgrade which won't pay much more (about $7 per hour) but I'll be getting that all important turbine PIC. It'll be long days and gone often but I will be in the left seat which I've been craving for quite a while. I really like the people that I get to work with and the company in the end has treated me great. The experience has been everything I've ever asked it to be. However I don't really see the pay and benefits ever being enough to sustain me for my whole career. If I stayed here, my hope in a few years would be to eventually go to a place like Southwest.

On the other hand I have this job offer from Netjets. I would start before the TA is ratified. I like the new pay and really think that I could live off of it for the duration of my career. Even the FO pay would be just fine for quite a while. I looks like I would be grandfathered in with the TA and be able to do the home basing which would certainly improve my quality of life. I would almost certainly spend more days at home which would be great as well. I do like the idea of the flying that Netjets does: not going the same place all the time, greater interaction with the customer, and much better resources available to you.

So those are my choices. Where I'm at we may grow and get bigger equipment and better pay. What I'd miss the most would be getting in the left seat (and the great people). There's also the distinct possibility that we could go out of business, we certainly haven't made any money in over 4 years. If I go to Netjets, I really would be saying "goodbye forever" to being an airline pilot. Not that the being an airline pilot is nearly as great as most of friends and family seem to think. Also it looks like at Netjets the left seat would be quite a few years down the road.

So I'll stop rambling and begin to hopefully recieve some of that expert feedback from all my peers on Flightinfo!
 

rice

Clown Puncher
Joined
Feb 10, 2002
Posts
902
Total Time
8000+
WillFlyFoCookie said:
.........................If I stayed here, my hope in a few years would be to eventually go to a place like Southwest.

On the other hand I have this job offer from Netjets. I would start before the TA is ratified. I like the new pay and really think that I could live off of it for the duration of my career. Even the FO pay would be just fine for quite a while. I looks like I would be grandfathered in with the TA and be able to do the home basing which would certainly improve my quality of life. I would almost certainly spend more days at home which would be great as well. I do like the idea of the flying that Netjets does: not going the same place all the time, greater interaction with the customer, and much better resources available to you.

So those are my choices. Where I'm at we may grow and get bigger equipment and better pay. What I'd miss the most would be getting in the left seat (and the great people). There's also the distinct possibility that we could go out of business, we certainly haven't made any money in over 4 years. If I go to Netjets, I really would be saying "goodbye forever" to being an airline pilot. Not that the being an airline pilot is nearly as great as most of friends and family seem to think. Also it looks like at Netjets the left seat would be quite a few years down the road. ........................................
Not to be harsh but..........................................
Guys like you drive me nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You like the type of flying NetJets does but you'd eventually like to go to a place like SWA??. You like the new pay and sked at NJA but should you stay at a place which may or may not be in business in a couple years??. BTW the NJA pay still sucks!!! You'll realize that in a couple years. Why would you be saying goodbye to the airlines forever if you went to NJA??? Do some research!! How do you know how long it'll take to get into the left seat at NJA??? The guys who work there now don't have any idea (because no one (pilot types) really knows what future growth will be). Bottom line is : YOU need to set a goal, Where to I want to be in 10 years? and then set out on a plan to achieve it. I'd hate to have a V1 cut with you right now, should I abort or should I go?? Its your life and you are the one in command of it make a decision and deal with the ramifications.
 

Going2Golf

Facta, non verba
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Posts
88
Total Time
7000+
If they have offered take it.
You said that even on current FO pay you could live and you would pickup a type in the process.
Lots of ex DO328Jet pilots over here from ACA/Indy.
 

Twotter76

Masterless Samurai
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
697
Total Time
enough
I'd take it - in fact I am trying to do the exact same thing. PM me if you like - my situation is almost exactly the same as yours except I really don't have any need to go to an airline down the road, I could be real happy at NJA.
 

WillFlyFoCookie

On Wisconsin
Joined
Jun 23, 2004
Posts
104
Total Time
3500
I definitely don't need to go to a major airline down the road either! I said only IF I stay where I'm at would I look for a place like SWA down the road. I really believe Netjets could be just as good in its own way. By the way, what DO you guys think I should do when I get my next V1 cut? :rolleyes:
 
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Guitar Guy

Charvel - San Dimas
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Posts
1,770
Total Time
Enough
WillFlyFoCookie said:
By the way, what DO you guys like I should do when I get my next V1 cut? :rolleyes:

To quote "Airplane!", "The decision to continue is yours...."


Actually, if you've still got some NetJets questions, feel free to PM me.
 

LearAv8r

John Ross Ewing JR
Joined
Dec 9, 2001
Posts
254
Total Time
8500+
I would stay and get the PIC turbine....I have many friends that don't have the majic 1000 hours and are kicking themselves because they had the opportunity but didn't do it or stick with it. If you go to Netjets now you are guarenteed to not upgrade for a long time....get the pic then go to Netjets, Flexjet or whatever....


The key thing is that you said that you would be flying alot so you should build that time fairly quickly.....get the turbine time and then make the move.....it only opens up your options down the road...but if your like 55 or 60 or something like that, I'd go to Netjets...really depends on where you are at in your career

remember that the grass is always greener on the other side.....(but only at the front gate.....)

Lear-
 

On Your Six

Well-known member
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Mar 8, 2004
Posts
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9,500
Just take it before the TA is ratified... This is your chance to get favorable basing...
 

FLYnMONKEYS

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Posts
115
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6000+
WillFlyFoCookie said:
If I stayed here, my hope in a few years would be to eventually go to a place like Southwest.

!

What makes you think that Southwest is such a great place? Do you want to fly the same plane for the rest of your career? It's like working at a Walmart that moves fast.

Seriously, if the new TA passes I believe NJA could be a career type of place. The wages are below Southwest's but I also feel the surviving majors are going to join Southwest in the race to the bottom that they created. Southwest is responsible for brining low fares and low expectations to the public. When the hedging is over it will be a question of industry limbo. How low can you go?

In NJA's case rich people will always be here. If some rich guy loses it all it's only because someone else took it from him. A potential new owner:) Unlike Southwest we will better the company and marketshare by being flexible, innovative, and forward thinking. Not making price the only issue.

Southwest pilots may be the highest paid airline pilots in the country now, and that may be their ultimate demise as the cheaper low cost companies out Southwest them with their new found cheap labor.

I'm sticking with the rich people.
 

semperfido

Keep Humpin
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Posts
1,873
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11K+
FLYnMONKEYS said:
It's like working at a Walmart that moves fast.

I also feel the surviving majors are going to join Southwest in the race to the bottom that they created. Southwest is responsible for brining low fares and low expectations to the public. When the hedging is over it will be a question of industry limbo. How low can you go?

.

i am riding on them next week and i am not looking forward to the inevitable "seat grab". if i end up in a middle seat next to a fat gang banger --oh well you get the picture---da monkey is right about this one. :)
 

Stickshaker

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
58
Total Time
4300
Will FLy

Will Fly,
If they have treated you so good, why havn't they paid you like a professional Pilot with a college degree. Because they want you to leave and move on so they can hire another CFI with 1500 hours. NJA is a no brainer for now. Please send me an email and I will send you my number to talk to you. I have been at NJA for 5 years and I have been with two 121 airlines as well as a part 91 flight department. Just e-mail me
 

beytzim

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
202
Total Time
enough
I'll be fashnizzled! Now that you have a descent T/A, Netjets is better than Southwest? Who are you kidding? I flew for NJA and now fly for SWA. Hands down, SWA is a better company, in every aspect:
1. Pay
2. Schedule
3. Managment/Employee Relationship
4. Fun on the job
5. Overnights
6. Overrall employee satisfaction.

Let me tell you something, brother, when you're making 200k+/year (12th year PIC pay) and only overnighting 8-10 nights a month, you can have a lot of FUN away from the job as well. Your family may even recognize you when you come home from a whopping MAXIMUM 4 day trip.

In the two months on the line at SWA, I've had more fun on overnights that I've had in a long time at Netjets. When you mix two sets of flights crews together (i.e. 10 of us) with SWA drink specials at most of our hotels you can have a lot of fun ;)


Back to the original subject. SWA has consistently proven that working efficiently creates low fares - we are not bringing the industry down - we only fly to 61 cities - hardly a competitor to Northwest and Delta! The industry has destroyed itself through greedy unions and egotistical managment - read Hard Landing for God's sake!
 

Gulfstream 200

Database Expert
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Posts
4,574
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18,550
FLYnMONKEYS said:
What makes you think that Southwest is such a great place? Do you want to fly the same plane for the rest of your career? It's like working at a Walmart that moves fast.

Seriously, if the new TA passes I believe NJA could be a career type of place. The wages are below Southwest's but I also feel the surviving majors are going to join Southwest in the race to the bottom that they created. Southwest is responsible for brining low fares and low expectations to the public. When the hedging is over it will be a question of industry limbo. How low can you go?

In NJA's case rich people will always be here. If some rich guy loses it all it's only because someone else took it from him. A potential new owner:) Unlike Southwest we will better the company and marketshare by being flexible, innovative, and forward thinking. Not making price the only issue.

Southwest pilots may be the highest paid airline pilots in the country now, and that may be their ultimate demise as the cheaper low cost companies out Southwest them with their new found cheap labor.

I'm sticking with the rich people.


After 10+/- years at SWA my guess is you will be doing a little better than Netjets industry breaking whopping 90K.

no?

While It's not my bag, FLYING for SWA is very different than RIDING on SWA.

It may not be old school Major Airline money, but it's not even in the same league as any fractional.

Netjets may be a fine place to work for a bit, but to consider that TA grounds for a "career" is absurd. Shoot high for you career.

reality - we dont hang with the rich guys, we unload thier bags and empty thier $hit pots. (OK, throw someone 20 and supervise it)
 
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semperfido

Keep Humpin
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Dec 5, 2004
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very true... i am just dreading the whole check-in process...i am thinking as a pax not a pilot.:)
 

Diesel

TEB Hilton resident
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,394
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696969
god i hate queing for the A B C lines
 

FLYnMONKEYS

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Posts
115
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6000+
beytzim said:
I'll be fashnizzled! Now that you have a descent T/A, Netjets is better than Southwest? Who are you kidding? I flew for NJA and now fly for SWA.

Never said NJ was better than Southwest. I was trying to relate the fact that flying in the majors is very much different than it used to be.

Southwest created a bussiness model that has changed the industry forever. Price is their clame to fame, while I'll admit their people are always friendly their service sucks. People only fly on them because they believe it's a good bargin. People used to put a premium on frequency of schedule, perks for frequent fliers (using points to go somewhere other than BWI), and eating on a flight, not to mention an assigned seat.

Now the other airlines are trying their hardest to be like Southwest. Some of these companies will not survive. Some of these companies will beat Southwest at their own game eventually. Don't know who but it will be the ones who are willing to lower the bar even more.

As for me, a former major airline pilot, I'm glad to be at NetJets. I believe over the long run it will be more stable than any airline, including Southwest. I put a premium on that.
 

Semore Butts

Well-known member
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Posts
670
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Shhhhheeeeattt!!! Thats easy....

Well go to Netjets for awhile and then go to SWA...

Get there before the TA.

(Bird in the hand theory)
 

beytzim

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
202
Total Time
enough
Netjets has hardly proven a succesful past fostering a successful future:

1. Netjets has laid off pilots before
2. Netjets management/union relationships are absolutely awful (even with the T/A)
Remember, you practically had to get on your knees for four years, begging to get a descent wage that Santulli promised you anyway in 2001.
3. Netjets' business model failed to bring a sustainable profit when sales were slowing. That's when Boisture tried to get a profit from Flight Operations - an impossiblity.
4. Further, the business model is flawed by the greedy unabated jump into the Marquis program. Eventually owners will demand to know why their aircraft are accumulating twice the hours they initially expected, dropping resale values and transforming NJA into a glorified charter company.

The fact is that Netjets has yet to establish a consistent business model that will work for the long term. So don't be so confident, my friend.

Poor people are very predictable- they always go to the 'percieved' cheapest airline. Rich people are much harder to predict: price is not really a factor, its percieved value and stature, which is very subjective - don't be so sure NJA will hold the top 'percieved value' forever. Netjets has become very inefficient, reversing the theory of econimies of scale, don't be so sure that smaller companies like CitationShares won't come and bite you in the a$$ with better efficiencies and values.

One more addendum. Many pilots grounded airplanes left and right for the last 12 months - that had to create some bad blood with the owners - those owners may go elsewhere when their contract ends.

Netjets future is hardly written in stone. A smart pilot would rely on FedEx/SWA/UPS for a a stable future, period.
 
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