Big Midsize Jet Info Thread!!!

[CapnVegetto]

OK folks, here's the deal. My boss is seriously talking midsize jet. He wants one, and is willing to spend about $7 to $8 mil for one. Less or possibly more depending on what he gets. Here's the specs:

6 to 8 people and a lot of baggage off a 5,000 foot runway, 500 foot elevation. How far can he go? In the winter? Summer? What are some good jet suggestions? He wants plenty of baggage space and and IN-FLIGHT APU (as per my suggestion). Some jets to be tossed around:

Citation XLS
Citation 650
Citation Sovereign
Hawker (new or older)
Learjet 60
Astra
Jetstar
Falcon 20/200

I've got some time in a CE-650 and I know it's a bad runway hog, so it's just about out, but what about a VI or VII? Is it better?

I'd love some real-life numbers from you guys, especially the operators of said jets. Namely fuel burns, real-life (not aircraft salesman) range, operating costs (not just DOC, full costs per hour based on about 200 hours) MX issues, and basically the goods and bads of what you fly!! I plan on doing my own research, but I'd like to use you guys (the pilots) to weed out any horse$hit a salesman will try to shove down my throat.

We're operating a Citation II right now, and he is complaining about speed and size, wanting something bigger. If anyone would like to PM me I'll be glad to provide my phone # if you'd like to chat. Thanks for your help in advance!!!

 

[HawkerF/O]

Citation XLS
Market for the XL and XLS is on fire right now. Nice aircraft, right at your strike price, but you'll pay asking price. If the market falls out on them, you might get stuck with an aircraft that is worth considerably less than you paid for it. Challenger 600s (Lycoming) had that issue in the late 90 (selling in the upper 9M), and today a tricked out 600 goes for no more than 5M.

Falcon 20/200
Great aircraft, but the MX will get you. Annual and time/cycle limited items will be very expensive. No reason to buy an aircraft that old when you have the means to buy something newer and equal for the same coin. Baggage space is limited as well.

Citation 650
Fast, Fast, Fast airplane, but, like you said, runway hog. You might be alright in the Winter, but come summer, you'll be runway limited at a lot of popular summer destinations.

Citation Sovereign
Perfect for what you are talking, but way north of your price range. You'll find a work horse in those P&Ws. Looks like Cessna really hit a home run with this aircraft, but you'll just be too far apart on the $ to acquire one.

Hawker (new or older)
Another great aircraft for what you are wanting to do, but the baggae space will be a deal breaker. Great all around aircraft, great range, best cabin in it's class, but the baggage is horrible. Stay away from the 700s because the Avionics racks are located in the baggage area, and it takes up useful space. The 800's and newer are racked in the nose, reclaiming the baggae space.

Learjet 60
Rocket. Cabin is not as spacious as a Hawker, nor does it have the range, but it's a little faster than a Hawker, but not by much. It's very fuel efficient, but you'll have runway issues. The wing dictates high ref speeds. I've been told it likes to fly at 390-400. Any higher saves you no fuel due to drag from the wing. It's very versitile.

Astra
Smallest cabin area per dollar of any traditional corporate jet. It's fast, but has boots.

Jetstar
I would stay away from that Smokewagon. 4 Engines and old technology that does not like to sit. I'd stay away.

You might consider a nice Challenger 600. Great charter market out of Dallas for that aircraft. You challenger will be managing the DOCs. Good luck and thanks for calling me back!

For a reasonable 200 hour cost analysis, go to
http://www.omnijet.com/database/
and adjust the variables the real world prices(Fuel, pilot pay, etc). The other #s seem to be fairly accurate.

You can go here as well for a break-out on 1 sheet of several different planes.
http://www.omnijet.com/doc/index.html

If you need your insurance costs reduced while increasing your liability limits, call me and I'll out you in touch with my broker who seems to always be working his magic. He'll also get you the pilot terms you want and should have as the Chief Pilot.

 

[X man]

midsize biz jet

CE-680 would be perfect, but there aren't any available for probably under 15 Million or more.

 

[Headwind]

A Sabre 65 will do most of what you want. Baggage space no better than the Hawker, with less maintenance and better performance.

 

[ultrarunner]

OK folks, here's the deal. My boss is seriously talking midsize jet. He wants one, and is willing to spend about $7 to $8 mil for one. Less or possibly more depending on what he gets. Here's the specs:

6 to 8 people and a lot of baggage off a 5,000 foot runway, 500 foot elevation. How far can he go? In the winter? Summer? What are some good jet suggestions? He wants plenty of baggage space and and IN-FLIGHT APU (as per my suggestion). Some jets to be tossed around:

Citation XLS
Citation 650
Citation Sovereign
Hawker (new or older)
Learjet 60
Astra
Jetstar
Falcon 20/200

Capn, narrow this down a bit. How far does the boss WANT to go from that runway. What is the need going to be? Answer that and you can narrow your plane search quite a bit.

Keep in mind some of those planes above do NOT have an inflight APU. Most notably the 60. Astra too, I think, but not sure.

If you NEED/WANT good range year-round from that runway...summer and winter...I'd have the boss buck up the extra bucks for a Falcon 50. Doesn't have an in-flight APU, but it's a three-holer.

AND it meets all those other requirements.

Good luck

 

[Flat Spot]

One I didn't see listed was the Lear45 preferably an XR or one upgraded with the BR mod.

Pluses:
1. Good performance
2. 9 pax
3. lots of cargo room
4. sips fuel (~1250lbs @ 410 and .81 )
5. In your price range

Minuses:
1. Doesn't have quite the range of some of the others you listed
2. Takes a pretty heavy hit on wet rnwy performance
3. Cockpit seats hurt my butt : (

If your looking at a 60 I would also look at the 45, the numbers might surprise you.

 

[Flat Spot]

Thats what I get for not reading your whole post!!!

No inflight APU. :0

 

[Quimby]

Falcon 50...................or maybe a G-III if the boss owns an oil company.

 

[charter dog]

I think I see your challenge here! 6-8 pax w/heavy bags will be a BIG problem in the small end of the midsize jet selection. The Hawkers, Lears and Cessnas are really more of a 4-6 pax aircraft with the ability to carry up to 8 in a pinch when comfort isn't a requirement.

The 800XP will probably carry more mission fuel off the shortish runway and provide more cabin space than anything in it's size class, but it's a challenge to carry all their bags and some people will have to ride on the divan.

The Lear 60 is similar in size and baggage, but loves the runway a little too much, hot rod though it be once in the air!

The Falcon 50 has a rather limited cabin size (just a stretched DA-20)considering the weight of the aircraft. Great runway performance and range. Better have a full time mechanic or two and a large mx budget. Stacks of work cards every month and plenty of support tooling and equipment required!

The 650 and 560XL Cessnas, Astras and later model Sabres all share similar cabin space limitations.

In short, any of the above aircraft can be aquired within your stated budget range. But how well will they really meet your owner's mission requirements? This is worthy of further discussion since you don't want to be party to a decision he may later regret. I recommend gathering runway performance, range and cabin/baggage space specs for everything in the mid-size class and presenting this information to the boss for comparison with your endorsement of a "best choice" in each price bracket based only on it's ability to meet mission requirements and your department's ability to support the aircraft. Include aircraft priced from half to double the stated budget along with your assessment of each type's relative merits and shortcomings.

All aircraft aquisitions are a compromise between the competing factors of mission capability, size/comfort, age and price, to name a few. Ultimately, he will decide on the basis of his own priorities. Others from outside your group will most likely advise him too. (business associates etc...) But you will have provided him with valuable information to help him make his choice intelligently and he will know it. Then you can get on with making his choice happen. Who knows what you might end up flying?

Best,

 

[HawkerF/O]

Falcon 50...................or maybe a G-III if the boss owns an oil company.

Falcon 50 would be a great choice but the GIII would be a huge mistake. Most places in Europe are off limits and in the US the places that you could go charge a huge fee just for flying into the field due to its stage catagory. In 5 years, the GII and IIIs will be very limited here in the US. Most airports will not even allow them in due to the noise. Also, the DOCs on something like a GII or III are going to be through the roof. Buy one, and you'll be doing the previous owner a favor and then you'll be stuck with an airplane you can't unload unless you sell it to some freight operator down in Latin America, and that'll be pennies on the dollar.