Big Midsize Jet Info Thread!!!

[CapnVegetto]

Folks, thanks so much for the great info! I hadn't really considered a Falcon 50, thinking the op costs would be too high. I know the perf #'s are wonderful but I never dreamed you could get a good one is that price range or with op costs even close to something like a LR-45, 60, or XLS.

Anyone that flies a LR-45, I've got more questions. Don't worry so much about the APU anymore, but I'd love to know specifically about baggage space and range off of the 5,000 feet at about 30C. Thanks!

Appreciate all the info again!!

 

[devine9driver]

Baggage space in the 45 is excellent, we carry a ton of different shapes and sized items without a problem. If your runway is 5000' and 500ft msl at 30c you'd better be looking at a 45XR to get some range. Using our numbers you would take a 1000lb hit, having a 20,500lb T.O. weight. This would give you approx. 4700lbs of fuel (6062 max) with 8 pax and bags. We typically see a 1600lb burn the first hour, 1200 second and 1100 every hour after if your in the 43-47k ft alt range. This would give you about a 1100-1200nm range with the 4700lbs available landing with a reserve of 1000lbs. If the temp falls to 25c or your runway grows 500' then your looking at about another 500-600lbs of weight for fuel available. These numbers our based on the aircraft I fly and our BOW might be a little higher than most, we have dual FMS and all the fancy smancy DVD-CD equipment.

Hope this helps

 

[HMR]

Astra
Smallest cabin area per dollar of any traditional corporate jet. It's fast, but has boots.

What's wrong with boots? I wish our Falcon 50 had them.

 

[HMR]

6 to 8 people and a lot of baggage off a 5,000 foot runway, 500 foot elevation. How far can he go? In the winter? Summer?

*Note*- I don't know of any Astras that can carry 8 adults without falling out of the forward CG. If you have a couple children and a lot of weight in the baggage compartment, no problem.
The following numbers are figured with a pax weight of 200lbs per person plus 100lbs of luggage per person (7pax in the Astra). Fuel is based on landing with a solid hour remaining (2,000lbs).

ASTRA-
35C= 20,000lbs MGTOW (40 minutes flight time)
25C= 21,500lbs (1.5hrs)
15C= 22,300lbs (2hrs)
5C= 22,800lbs (2.3hrs)
More typical flight (4pax w/50lbs bags each and 20C)= 22,000lbs (3hrs)

FWIW- Here are the MGTOW's for the DA50. I didn't have time to figure fuel burns.:0
Falcon 50-
35C= 36,200lbs
25C= 39,100lbs
15C= 39,800lbs
5C = 40,440lbs

 

[Freight Dog]

I also don't think you could find an XL/XLS in your price range. They are running more around 10-12 mil.

While LR45 is definitely faster and sexier than the XLS, your boss might be more comfortable in the XL/XLS due to somewhat of a stand-up cabin which you don't have in a 45.

 

[Rick1128]

OK folks, here's the deal. My boss is seriously talking midsize jet. He wants one, and is willing to spend about $7 to $8 mil for one. Less or possibly more depending on what he gets. Here's the specs:

6 to 8 people and a lot of baggage off a 5,000 foot runway, 500 foot elevation. How far can he go? In the winter? Summer? What are some good jet suggestions? He wants plenty of baggage space and and IN-FLIGHT APU (as per my suggestion). Some jets to be tossed around:

Citation XLS
Citation 650
Citation Sovereign
Hawker (new or older)
Learjet 60
Astra
Jetstar
Falcon 20/200

I've got some time in a CE-650 and I know it's a bad runway hog, so it's just about out, but what about a VI or VII? Is it better?

I'd love some real-life numbers from you guys, especially the operators of said jets. Namely fuel burns, real-life (not aircraft salesman) range, operating costs (not just DOC, full costs per hour based on about 200 hours) MX issues, and basically the goods and bads of what you fly!! I plan on doing my own research, but I'd like to use you guys (the pilots) to weed out any horse$hit a salesman will try to shove down my throat.

We're operating a Citation II right now, and he is complaining about speed and size, wanting something bigger. If anyone would like to PM me I'll be glad to provide my phone # if you'd like to chat. Thanks for your help in advance!!!

Several years ago, the company I worked for gave me pretty much the same requirement, except I had to come out of a 5,000 ft runway at a 2,000 foot density altitude and go 1500nm. Our list was close to the same except we added the Westwind, CL600 and G2, no Soveriegn or XLS or Astra.

The Jetstar will not do 5,000 foot runways, especially on landing

The boss said no way to a G2. It is not a mid size and we being a public company, made it difficult to own one. Image.

The 650 would do the runway but not the 1500nm westbound in the winter

The company President (female) said absolutely NO WAY to the Sabre. The step down is an issue with women in skirts and heels.

The company said no to the Westwind as they felt like their tails werre dragging the runway.

The 60 was a runway landing requirement issue for us.

The boss really liked the Falcon 200. For us the engines were the killer there. They are orphans with the CG having first, second and third dibs on all the loaners. And when you add in that the 20F with the 731 conversation commands a better price on the market than a newer 200, that tells you something.

The 600's biggest issue is Bombardier. Service, parts and support will be your biggest issues with them.

We looked at th Hawker 800 and XP, but they were a little out of our budget at the time. The Hawker 600 fan was a better option for us than the 700. It is the same cabin and limitations, but about 1500 pounds lighter. The 800 and XP have a little more baggage room, plus many have a small closet in the rear cabin which gives you a little more room. They are pretty hard to beat. They are not outstanding in any one area, but they seem to quite well in all areas. I haven't seen an owner yet that didn't like the aircraft.

PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[CapnVegetto]

K I've been researching and talking all weekend. Think I've got the preliminary narrow down completed:

Lear 60 is out.....runway hog. Not goin anywhere out of 5000 feet in the summertime (typical temps of 30 or more C).

Hawker is out due to a complete lack of baggage space.

Jetstar is out due to high operating costs and performance issues.

Citation 650 is out due to runway hoggedness.

Falcon 50 is out because it's simply more airplane than he needs, and high operating costs. The 50EX is a fantastic airplane, but you can't get a decent DA50 for under $10 mil from what I've seen, and the op costs are up there pretty good.

So we're left with 3:

Lear 45
AstraSPX
Citation XLS

I've seen many decent XLS's just on the internet for $7 mil or so. And that's not even searching hard. I spoke at length with Lead Sled today and he really sold me on the Astra SPX/G100. Fantastic airplane. Thanks for the great info on the 45 devine9driver. The 45 and Astra have smaller cabins but perform better than the XL. Personally, I'll take performance any day over just about anything. But still, the XL, with it's big fat Hershey bar wing beats everything on runway performance. However, once you get an airplane that will get the job done, I could care less about taking off in 4000 feet vs 5000. Personally, I'm leaning hard toward the Astra, with the 45 in second, and the XL bringing up the rear. Does anyone know anywhere I can get cabin dimensions, baggage space dimensions, photos of a typical interior, etc?

Thanks!

 

[SabreFlyR]

K I've been researching and talking all weekend. Think I've got the preliminary narrow down completed:

Lear 60 is out.....runway hog. Not goin anywhere out of 5000 feet in the summertime (typical temps of 30 or more C).

Hawker is out due to a complete lack of baggage space.

Jetstar is out due to high operating costs and performance issues.

Citation 650 is out due to runway hoggedness.

Falcon 50 is out because it's simply more airplane than he needs, and high operating costs. The 50EX is a fantastic airplane, but you can't get a decent DA50 for under $10 mil from what I've seen, and the op costs are up there pretty good.

So we're left with 3:

Lear 45
AstraSPX
Citation XLS

I've seen many decent XLS's just on the internet for $7 mil or so. And that's not even searching hard. I spoke at length with Lead Sled today and he really sold me on the Astra SPX/G100. Fantastic airplane. Thanks for the great info on the 45 devine9driver. The 45 and Astra have smaller cabins but perform better than the XL. Personally, I'll take performance any day over just about anything. But still, the XL, with it's big fat Hershey bar wing beats everything on runway performance. However, once you get an airplane that will get the job done, I could care less about taking off in 4000 feet vs 5000. Personally, I'm leaning hard toward the Astra, with the 45 in second, and the XL bringing up the rear. Does anyone know anywhere I can get cabin dimensions, baggage space dimensions, photos of a typical interior, etc?

Thanks!

Try www.jetbroker.com and www.omnijet.com both have good info.
We are researching also and have looked at the Astra and it would do our trips for us but have decided against them, just to hard to sell when the time comes.

 

[devine9driver]

Go to bombardier.com and click to the 45 menu, you can see cabin layouts and download all of the tech specs. The internal cabin length I believe is just short of 20' and the height is just about 5'. The baggage door is 33" long and around 27" tall, with a maximum weight of 500lbs. We have fit several bikes into ours before with just the wheels taken off of them, and skis are no problem.

 

[CapnVegetto]

SabreFlyR brought up another interesting point. Astras, from what I've seen and heard is a GREAT airplane, probably one of the best out there on the market. So......that being said, why are they so cheap? Why don't you see many of them around? Seems like they beat most of the competition in everything except cabin size. So why??

 

[CelticCitation]

I'd like to re-ask the Capn's question. Is it the cabinon the Astra that has brought prices down?

 

[Lead Sled]

I'm not sure that I know the answer. The cabin size could have something to so with it, but it's not really that big of an issue for most people. After all, how often do your really load one up to the gills with 7 to 9 people and blast off on a 2800 nm leg? Most of the airplanes have all of the expected passenger comfort stuff - full size flushing lav, hot water in the sink, galley and microwave, entertainment center, etc. On the typical trip the room is more than adequate and it's actually a pretty pleasant place to spend a few hours.

Personally, I think that there is some prejudice with it being an Israeli built airplane. If you want to get technical about it, it's probably best described as being built in the U.S. and assembled in Israel - engines, avionics, brakes, tires, and most of the airframe components are built in the U.S. Someone once told me that the only components built in Israel were the landing gear struts. Whether or not that's true, I couldn't say.

In the past there were product support issues, but Gulfstream has allayed any of those fears. There were also issues in the past concerning the reliability of the slat/flap system, but those issues have been resolved. (It's amazing what happens when the things are maintained properly.)

There are a lot of pilots out there that scoff at the idea of pneumatic boots on a modern bizjet. Say what you want, but when it comes to climb performance in icing conditions, I'll put my SPX against your Lear or Falcon any day. Boots are essentially a non-issue and in my opinion they have more pluses than minuses.

When it comes to airplanes (especially jet airplanes), everything is a compromise of one sort or another. The only way I know to figure out which one best fits a specific set of mission and budget constraints is to do it the old fashioned way - be honest with your requirements then list each of the candidates with their respective pluses and minuses. Crude, but effective. Like any other light to mid-size jet out there, the Astra has it's fair share of compromises, that being said, it's still is the most bang for the buck out there.

I've seen operator after operator fly them for a few years then, when the time comes, sell them for more than they paid in the first place.

'Sled

 

[AA717driver]

FWIW--I just spent a couple days on a layover with the new guy we hired and the crew of his former plane. They have an Astra and a WW. They really liked the Astra and flew to ASE all the time (but had to go to DEN to get gas to go anywhere else, though).

Their pax all requested the Astra and were very loyal to the company. It seemed to be reliable, too.

Good luck on your choice.TC

 

[Lead Sled]

...They really liked the Astra and flew to ASE all the time (but had to go to DEN to get gas to go anywhere else, though). Their pax all requested the Astra and were very loyal to the company. It seemed to be reliable, too.

Just a thought on the ASE comment...
We operate in and out of ASE on a several times per month basis. Yes the Astra is limited out of ASE as is every other airplane out there. That being said, many pilots aren't up to speed on the takeoff and climb performance requirements and how to properly compute them and consequently screw it up - unnecessarily handicapping their ASE operations.

[FWIW, yesterday early afternoon we were able to do ASE to CRQ nonstop with 5 passengers, golf clubs and baggage and land with 1500 lbs of fuel and that was in our Astra Classic. (Our Falcon 50 isn't on line quite yet.) An SPX would have done even better.]

'Sled