Beware to potential PCL street Captains

[PCL_128]

Comair got listed with Horizon and Eagle? Not sure how much you've jumpseated on them or seen their recent history...

Dang, only been at DAL for less than a year, and they've already indoctrinated you as a CMR hater? I've been on Comair quite a bit, and I've never seen anything that would make me worry. The average CMR Captain has probably been there for over 7 years, so they definitely have the experience.

 

[Flyer1015]

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle!!!

Well, there can be exceptions, right? *cough* *cough*

 

[arthompson]

I wouldn't recruit any of my friends to work there. I had one buddy apply, he has 14,000 hours, they turned him down. He is now a Sky West CRJ CA.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Not true. The PCL training department has some very good people. But many of the old timers are chest beating losers who are trying to convince everyone including themselves that being an APD at PCL is what they wanted out of life.
These gentalmen make up their own rules and standards. One example is pushing the aircraft off the taxiway and into the grass on push back during type rides. This is then followed promptly by a pink slip for not seeing you had been pushed off a taxiway.
That said I would willingly fly the line with any of them. While doing so I would learn a lot and have some fun.
The problem in this case is not money but standardization. At PCL the training environment is very dependent on the day and the phase of the moon. In short if you get the right instructors and APD a retarded monkey can get a type at the CEC, but get the wrong ones and Chuck Yeager will be sent back to the right seat.
PCL with out a doubt has the worst training in the 121 world. Add to that FOs who have never ever been in a cloud and have less than 250 hours total time including 100 hours of crj sim at their bridge school, you the captain are a violation or worse waiting to happen.
In upgrade we were told by every guest speaker in class including the FAA POIs that with the FOs PCL is hiring we will be single pilot.
So to sum it all up almost any other airline would be a better choice. Remember the violations you receive at PCL will be reportable for the rest of your flying life.
For the record I'm not bitter with the training dept. I did pass my type on the first try. I'm only giving the facts of the case.

This post brings back some memories I am still trying to forget. I've never busted a checkride or training event in my life and I have been through 5 long term training events. Never busted a line check or PC. Never even came close. I am always shooting for 100% on any written and use all the resources I have to prepare for any event. This video is so true on so many levels as to the treatment some of the folks off the street get. As stated before - sometimes being prepared (as a another APD described me during that time) isn't enough. Who you get for your checkride makes a difference at Pinnacle. Take this post for what it's worth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJbcT2MCqHY

 

[Regional4life]

Grimper is right to a degree. A Check Airman ranted to me about this the other day and it does make sense. The reason current off the street captains do not get through is the Check Airman are looking at these guys to see if they are going to be able to fly Pinnacle CRJ's single pilot IFR in snowy or emergency conditions. Over half are just not ready for that type of responsibility. .

I understand what you are trying to say here, but the problem is that it is NOT the responsibility of the check airman to see if this guy can fly single pilot IFR. If that's what the training department wants to train to, then it is the instructor's responsibility to train to that, as the completion standard for each lesson should be listed in the companys training manual, then sign them off for the check ride once they feel comfortable that this guy is capable of single pilot IFR with both engines on fire. In fact, there is a FAR that states exactly what an instructors signoff means (FAR 121.401c).

The check airman's responsibility during a type ride is to ensure that the individual performs to and meets the ATP standards/minimums as listed in the ATP PTS. It is not up to the check airman to set his own standards during a checkride. If the individual meets ATP mins, they should pass. Training should be much harder than checking as training should be held to a higher standard than the actual check ride. It completely sucks (and is a joke) to jeopardize a guys "ticket" due to a check airman who thinks he is "saving" the company by checking to higher standards than what is listed in the ATP PTS. If a check airman has a higher standard than the PTS, he is doing an injustice to his fellow pilot and not following the guidance as listed in the 8400.10.

If a company wants to "train" to those type of standards, do it in a loft (or numerous lofts) scenarios. A check ride is not the place to see if a pilot is chuck yeagar with the mental capacity of Stephen Hawkings.

(off my soapbox now).

 

[bouttime]

I do seem to remember alot of Pinnacle bashing the past couple years about street captains. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it's okay?? Just wait until Mesaba street captains hit the line. At least Pinnacle's minimums were 3500 off the street. What are Mesaba's? 1500?
Potential scenario: 1500 hr CA 200 hr FO


Side note:
Regional4life has an excellent point

 

[Raskal]

I understand what you are trying to say here, but the problem is that it is NOT the responsibility of the check airman to see if this guy can fly single pilot IFR. If that's what the training department wants to train to, then it is the instructor's responsibility to train to that, as the completion standard for each lesson should be listed in the companys training manual, then sign them off for the check ride once they feel comfortable that this guy is capable of single pilot IFR with both engines on fire. In fact, there is a FAR that states exactly what an instructors signoff means (FAR 121.401c).

The check airman's responsibility during a type ride is to ensure that the individual performs to and meets the ATP standards/minimums as listed in the ATP PTS. It is not up to the check airman to set his own standards during a checkride. If the individual meets ATP mins, they should pass. Training should be much harder than checking as training should be held to a higher standard than the actual check ride. It completely sucks (and is a joke) to jeopardize a guys "ticket" due to a check airman who thinks he is "saving" the company by checking to higher standards than what is listed in the ATP PTS. If a check airman has a higher standard than the PTS, he is doing an injustice to his fellow pilot and not following the guidance as listed in the 8400.10.

If a company wants to "train" to those type of standards, do it in a loft (or numerous lofts) scenarios. A check ride is not the place to see if a pilot is chuck yeagar with the mental capacity of Stephen Hawkings.

(off my soapbox now).

Excellent post...

One thing that I find really curious is that there seems to be some impresstion that captains off the street have less than desirable experience. From what I've seen, that is completely wrong. What stops many very well-qualified people from going to the regionals is the FO pay...it's way out of line with what they're making at their current jobs. And, I'm sorry, but to say that because someone hasn't flown a "_________ airline" aircraft so they are just not going to be able to do it is absolutely ridiculous and shows a real lack of experience. A captain is a captain, and if he/she has thousands of hours in jets, multiple types and experience than their qualifications are fine. "___________ airline" jets are not "special" or unique or are somehow much more difficult to operate than any other carriers aircraft just because they have a re-ordered checklist and different uniforms. The job is pretty much the same, either you can do it or you can't.

 

[Raskal]

I do seem to remember alot of Pinnacle bashing the past couple years about street captains. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it's okay?? Just wait until Mesaba street captains hit the line. At least Pinnacle's minimums were 3500 off the street. What are Mesaba's? 1500?
Potential scenario: 1500 hr CA 200 hr FO


Side note:
Regional4life has an excellent point

I know 4 out of 9 people (including myself) who are starting class at XJ on the 19th. Though the mins were 2000 (not 1500), the average is 3500 with 6000 being the high that I know of, previous turbine PIC and at least one jet type. Still worried?

 

[bouttime]

I know 4 out of 9 people (including myself) who are starting class at XJ on the 19th. Though the mins were 2000 (not 1500), the average is 3500 with 6000 being the high that I know of, previous turbine PIC and at least one jet type. Still worried?

I'm reguratating the comments from the past couple years. The people who actually do get hired for the street captain postition may be very qualified. The point that was brought up was you could have an applicant that has 3500 hrs of Cub time and walk in to 9E and be a captain. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I don't hear anything about the possibility of someone with 1500 hrs of Cub time being a CA at XJ. Also a friend who is at XJ told me they have hired 6 people that he knows of with less than 300 hrs.... Pair them up with a 1500 street captain.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm reguratating the comments from the past couple years. The people who actually do get hired for the street captain postition may be very qualified. The point that was brought up was you could have an applicant that has 3500 hrs of Cub time and walk in to 9E and be a captain. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I don't hear anything about the possibility of someone with 1500 hrs of Cub time being a CA at XJ. Also a friend who is at XJ told me they have hired 6 people that he knows of with less than 300 hrs.... Pair them up with a 1500 street captain.....

You got a problem with Cub time?

 

[Raskal]

I'm reguratating the comments from the past couple years. The people who actually do get hired for the street captain postition may be very qualified. The point that was brought up was you could have an applicant that has 3500 hrs of Cub time and walk in to 9E and be a captain. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I don't hear anything about the possibility of someone with 1500 hrs of Cub time being a CA at XJ. Also a friend who is at XJ told me they have hired 6 people that he knows of with less than 300 hrs.... Pair them up with a 1500 street captain.....

Ahhh, forgive me then. I get what you were saying...I had no idea the street caps at PCL were different, although I do know that outside of 121 (and maybe in it too), the reputation for the lifestyle/morale of the PCL group is pretty bad-maybe that explains it.

I hope the flagship folks can get through what seems to be a total mess ok...keep up the good fight!

Less than 300??? Wow, it is getting a bit nuts isn't it.

 

[bouttime]

Ahhh, forgive me then. I get what you were saying...I had no idea the street caps at PCL were different, although I do know that outside of 121 (and maybe in it too), the reputation for the lifestyle/morale of the PCL group is pretty bad-maybe that explains it.

I hope the flagship folks can get through what seems to be a total mess ok...keep up the good fight!

Less than 300??? Wow, it is getting a bit nuts isn't it.

It is starting to look like the 9E pilots may have management by the balls. Management is having a hard time recruiting pilots because of the low starting pay, so they have given bonuses to new hires. This is essentially changing the status quo which is a big no no. In order to fill new hire slots it may take a new contract addressing the pay and QOL issues. Who knows 9E may have a good contract in 6 months.

 

[Raskal]

It is starting to look like the 9E pilots may have management by the balls. Management is having a hard time recruiting pilots because of the low starting pay, so they have given bonuses to new hires. This is essentially changing the status quo which is a big no no. In order to fill new hire slots it may take a new contract addressing the pay and QOL issues. Who knows 9E may have a good contract in 6 months.

I hope so...I read about the bonus thing, have there been any updates? Wasn't there a suit involved?

I also read something about them trying to raise FO pay outside the contract or something? Can they do that? They seem to be fighting the employees at every turn, one would think they would come to realize that no one wins in these things and to sit down and come to an agreement is better for all involved. It's amazing how pig-headed people can be.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I also read something about them trying to raise FO pay outside the contract or something? Can they do that?

This thread may help to answer your question: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=104875

 

[Raskal]

This thread may help to answer your question: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=104875

Thanks, not sure how I missed that one--fun reading.

 

[Inconceivable]

This week the company has upped IOE for all new hires to 50 hours regardless of experience.

Tell you something?

 

[Raskal]

This week the company has upped IOE for all new hires to 50 hours regardless of experience.

Tell you something?

Yeah, sounds like people are making it out of training that shouldn't...not a good problem to have. One would think something has to give eventually

 

[Rook]

Yeah, sounds like people are making it out of training that shouldn't...

At 9E????

Nahhh....

 

[millhouse21]

So, after IOE, it's possible that a new pilot will have accumulated one seventh of his/her total flight time while on IOE. Nice.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

It's good they are giving more IOE... Remember AQP programs required a minimum of 40 hours IOE on your initial checkout.