Beware to potential PCL street Captains

[PCL_128]

For anyone that is considering going to Pinnacle for the instant Captain upgrade, you might want to think twice about it. I talked to somebody in the training department a couple of days ago, and the current failure rate for guys going straight to upgrade training is over 50%. Do you really want to risk a less than fifty-fifty chance of passing your type ride? Remember, this will follow you around for the rest of your career. And for your trouble, if you make it through the checkride, you'll be subjected to the worst reserve system in the industry for the next few years. Is it really worth it? I think not.

Go to Mesaba if the quick upgrade is what you're looking for. It's a much better company overall, and you'll be treated like an actual human being during training.

 

[Wiggums]

Sounds like the training department sucks.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Going from COMM MEL to ATP with a jet type rating is a big step. Some guys show up with an ATP already and even a CRJ type. Understand the environment that you are getting into....

Also, it maybe be true that PCL now requires pilots to sit right seat briefly before going to upgrade.... Thus with two training events and flying the line it might be 10 months before you see the left seat...

Control what you can.....

 

[bouttime]

I doubt mesaba will be any better. I personally would want it to be hard to come in as a street captain. Would you want any joe blow to be in charge of 52 other people?

 

[bluefishbeagle]

It's a tough bullet to bite. Even with thousands of hours, ATP, mutiple jet types and former 121 experience. The reserve sucks big time, scheduling treats you like shxt and they short change your check every payday, you get tired of calling them on it.

The best upgrade at PCL is when you quit.

just sign me,

Been there done that, former PCL street captain

 

[Smarta$$]

Going from COMM MEL to ATP with a jet type rating is a big step. Some guys show up with an ATP already and even a CRJ type. Understand the environment that you are getting into....

Also, it maybe be true that PCL now requires pilots to sit right seat briefly before going to upgrade.... Thus with two training events and flying the line it might be 10 months before you see the left seat...

Control what you can.....

Yes, you must complete FO training, OE and then fly 100 hours in the right seat before you can bid for a captain slot. FO pay for a very long time, assuming you can pass the upgrade training. Captains pay does not start until completion of CA OE\Fed ride.

 

[30West]

Sounds like the training department sucks.

I was thinking the same thing. Eventually a high enough failure rate will trigger a look see by the local Friendly Airplane Association office.

 

[ataopsdave]

I was thinking the same thing. Eventually a high enough failure rate will trigger a look see by the local Friendly Airplane Association office.

You have to understand something about our FAA office in MEM...they are weak and in the company's pocket...About 2 years ago the failure rate for upgrade was astronomical...upgrades only got 5 sims and 15 hours of OE...thats right 15....finally the FAA got a backbone and told the company to fix it...the company raised it to 7 sims and 25 hours of OE and the pass rate got alot better (in the 85% range)...you would think that everybody was happy right....no it was costing the company money so Uncle Phil had this great idea of getting these new CPTs that were digital and was going to improve training...everybody hopped on the bandwagon including the FAA but then our program manager thought that since we had to spend money for them we would have to cut somewhere else...so they cut 2 sims for new hires and 1 sim for upgrades...thus we have the results that we have now...and they dont know why we have such a high failure rate....they only need to look back and see that the pass rate was alot higher when the upgrade candidates had more sim time...should tell you something about our training dept....whats even worse is that all these decisions being made are by guys that came over from FEDEX...The CEC is now known as the FEDEX RETIREMENT VILLAGE...Sorry for the rant...

Just an observation from somebody who spent 2 years in the FEDEX RETIREMENT VILLAGE

 

[redflyer65]

You would be better off going anywhere....either FO or street CA.


The abuse on reserve is legendary. The FO payscale is abysmal.

If you come to PCL, you will be working under a contract that was crafted in 1999. Well before there were jets on the property and three hubs.

This 1999 contract is so far behind the current company ops, that you and your family will feel it.

Look elsewhere.

 

[Flybet3]

Sounds like the training department sucks.

Indeed it does.

 

[Flybet3]

you'll be subjected to the worst reserve system in the industry for the next few years.

Indeed it is.

 

[flyboyike]

Sounds like the training department sucks.

It's not necessarily the training department's fault, if the management refuses to spend any money on training.

 

[Grimper]

Not true. The PCL training department has some very good people. But many of the old timers are chest beating losers who are trying to convince everyone including themselves that being an APD at PCL is what they wanted out of life.
These gentalmen make up their own rules and standards. One example is pushing the aircraft off the taxiway and into the grass on push back during type rides. This is then followed promptly by a pink slip for not seeing you had been pushed off a taxiway.
That said I would willingly fly the line with any of them. While doing so I would learn a lot and have some fun.
The problem in this case is not money but standardization. At PCL the training environment is very dependent on the day and the phase of the moon. In short if you get the right instructors and APD a retarded monkey can get a type at the CEC, but get the wrong ones and Chuck Yeager will be sent back to the right seat.
PCL with out a doubt has the worst training in the 121 world. Add to that FOs who have never ever been in a cloud and have less than 250 hours total time including 100 hours of crj sim at their bridge school, you the captain are a violation or worse waiting to happen.
In upgrade we were told by every guest speaker in class including the FAA POIs that with the FOs PCL is hiring we will be single pilot.
So to sum it all up almost any other airline would be a better choice. Remember the violations you receive at PCL will be reportable for the rest of your flying life.
For the record I'm not bitter with the training dept. I did pass my type on the first try. I'm only giving the facts of the case.

 

[PinnacleDude]

Grimper is right to a degree. A Check Airman ranted to me about this the other day and it does make sense. The reason current off the street captains do not get through is the Check Airman are looking at these guys to see if they are going to be able to fly Pinnacle CRJ's single pilot IFR in snowy or emergency conditions. Over half are just not ready for that type of responsibility. The failure rate is high enough among regular upgrades and many of those folks have had a year or two to observe winter ops and become familiar to the f@#ed up Pinnacle way.

As a normal line holder, I used to think a 500 hour guy was low time. Now, I get a 500 hour guy and I am thankful to get a veteran! We will be so lucky if we do not have an accident this winter.

 

[eaglefly]

Grimper is right to a degree. A Check Airman ranted to me about this the other day and it does make sense. The reason current off the street captains do not get through is the Check Airman are looking at these guys to see if they are going to be able to fly Pinnacle CRJ's single pilot IFR in snowy or emergency conditions. Over half are just not ready for that type of responsibility. The failure rate is high enough among regular upgrades and many of those folks have had a year or two to observe winter ops and become familiar to the f@#ed up Pinnacle way.

As a normal line holder, I used to think a 500 hour guy was low time. Now, I get a 500 hour guy and I am thankful to get a veteran! We will be so lucky if we do not have an accident this winter.

You've convinced me. I won't fly on Pinnicle......................too dangerous.

 

[silver02ex]

Not true. The PCL training department has some very good people. But many of the old timers are chest beating losers who are trying to convince everyone including themselves that being an APD at PCL is what they wanted out of life.
These gentalmen make up their own rules and standards. One example is pushing the aircraft off the taxiway and into the grass on push back during type rides. This is then followed promptly by a pink slip for not seeing you had been pushed off a taxiway.
That said I would willingly fly the line with any of them. While doing so I would learn a lot and have some fun.
The problem in this case is not money but standardization. At PCL the training environment is very dependent on the day and the phase of the moon. In short if you get the right instructors and APD a retarded monkey can get a type at the CEC, but get the wrong ones and Chuck Yeager will be sent back to the right seat.
PCL with out a doubt has the worst training in the 121 world. Add to that FOs who have never ever been in a cloud and have less than 250 hours total time including 100 hours of crj sim at their bridge school, you the captain are a violation or worse waiting to happen.
In upgrade we were told by every guest speaker in class including the FAA POIs that with the FOs PCL is hiring we will be single pilot.
So to sum it all up almost any other airline would be a better choice. Remember the violations you receive at PCL will be reportable for the rest of your flying life.
For the record I'm not bitter with the training dept. I did pass my type on the first try. I'm only giving the facts of the case.

I'm heading to upgrade in the middle of next month, and i've been on the line about a year, are these CA off the street busting because they are not familar with Pinnacle's procedure or what? With all this talk about 50+% wash out rate for CA's is making me worried about going to upgrade.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm heading to upgrade in the middle of next month, and i've been on the line about a year, are these CA off the street busting because they are not familar with Pinnacle's procedure or what? With all this talk about 50+% wash out rate for CA's is making me worried about going to upgrade.

Get your ATP before you go to upgrade....

 

[PCL_128]

You've convinced me. I won't fly on Pinnicle......................too dangerous.

It's not just Pinnacle. There's very few regionals that I feel comfortable riding on. I always felt safe on ASA and Mesaba because the most junior Captain had years and years of experience, but even Mesaba is down to street Captains now. Eagle, Comair, and Horizon are probably safe bets, but most of the regionals are just accidents waiting to happen nowadays with the ATP-minimums Captains and part 141 minimums FOs.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Comair got listed with Horizon and Eagle? Not sure how much you've jumpseated on them or seen their recent history...

 

[BE90flyer]

I worry the worst when I am flying with someone who paid for their job. You know taking a potential job away from a real pilot who should have got paid. Its even worse when that person know thinks that are an expert in aviation.

 

[PCL_128]

Comair got listed with Horizon and Eagle? Not sure how much you've jumpseated on them or seen their recent history...

Dang, only been at DAL for less than a year, and they've already indoctrinated you as a CMR hater? I've been on Comair quite a bit, and I've never seen anything that would make me worry. The average CMR Captain has probably been there for over 7 years, so they definitely have the experience.

 

[Flyer1015]

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle!!!

Well, there can be exceptions, right? *cough* *cough*

 

[arthompson]

I wouldn't recruit any of my friends to work there. I had one buddy apply, he has 14,000 hours, they turned him down. He is now a Sky West CRJ CA.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Not true. The PCL training department has some very good people. But many of the old timers are chest beating losers who are trying to convince everyone including themselves that being an APD at PCL is what they wanted out of life.
These gentalmen make up their own rules and standards. One example is pushing the aircraft off the taxiway and into the grass on push back during type rides. This is then followed promptly by a pink slip for not seeing you had been pushed off a taxiway.
That said I would willingly fly the line with any of them. While doing so I would learn a lot and have some fun.
The problem in this case is not money but standardization. At PCL the training environment is very dependent on the day and the phase of the moon. In short if you get the right instructors and APD a retarded monkey can get a type at the CEC, but get the wrong ones and Chuck Yeager will be sent back to the right seat.
PCL with out a doubt has the worst training in the 121 world. Add to that FOs who have never ever been in a cloud and have less than 250 hours total time including 100 hours of crj sim at their bridge school, you the captain are a violation or worse waiting to happen.
In upgrade we were told by every guest speaker in class including the FAA POIs that with the FOs PCL is hiring we will be single pilot.
So to sum it all up almost any other airline would be a better choice. Remember the violations you receive at PCL will be reportable for the rest of your flying life.
For the record I'm not bitter with the training dept. I did pass my type on the first try. I'm only giving the facts of the case.

This post brings back some memories I am still trying to forget. I've never busted a checkride or training event in my life and I have been through 5 long term training events. Never busted a line check or PC. Never even came close. I am always shooting for 100% on any written and use all the resources I have to prepare for any event. This video is so true on so many levels as to the treatment some of the folks off the street get. As stated before - sometimes being prepared (as a another APD described me during that time) isn't enough. Who you get for your checkride makes a difference at Pinnacle. Take this post for what it's worth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJbcT2MCqHY

 

[Regional4life]

Grimper is right to a degree. A Check Airman ranted to me about this the other day and it does make sense. The reason current off the street captains do not get through is the Check Airman are looking at these guys to see if they are going to be able to fly Pinnacle CRJ's single pilot IFR in snowy or emergency conditions. Over half are just not ready for that type of responsibility. .

I understand what you are trying to say here, but the problem is that it is NOT the responsibility of the check airman to see if this guy can fly single pilot IFR. If that's what the training department wants to train to, then it is the instructor's responsibility to train to that, as the completion standard for each lesson should be listed in the companys training manual, then sign them off for the check ride once they feel comfortable that this guy is capable of single pilot IFR with both engines on fire. In fact, there is a FAR that states exactly what an instructors signoff means (FAR 121.401c).

The check airman's responsibility during a type ride is to ensure that the individual performs to and meets the ATP standards/minimums as listed in the ATP PTS. It is not up to the check airman to set his own standards during a checkride. If the individual meets ATP mins, they should pass. Training should be much harder than checking as training should be held to a higher standard than the actual check ride. It completely sucks (and is a joke) to jeopardize a guys "ticket" due to a check airman who thinks he is "saving" the company by checking to higher standards than what is listed in the ATP PTS. If a check airman has a higher standard than the PTS, he is doing an injustice to his fellow pilot and not following the guidance as listed in the 8400.10.

If a company wants to "train" to those type of standards, do it in a loft (or numerous lofts) scenarios. A check ride is not the place to see if a pilot is chuck yeagar with the mental capacity of Stephen Hawkings.

(off my soapbox now).

 

[bouttime]

I do seem to remember alot of Pinnacle bashing the past couple years about street captains. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it's okay?? Just wait until Mesaba street captains hit the line. At least Pinnacle's minimums were 3500 off the street. What are Mesaba's? 1500?
Potential scenario: 1500 hr CA 200 hr FO


Side note:
Regional4life has an excellent point

 

[Raskal]

I understand what you are trying to say here, but the problem is that it is NOT the responsibility of the check airman to see if this guy can fly single pilot IFR. If that's what the training department wants to train to, then it is the instructor's responsibility to train to that, as the completion standard for each lesson should be listed in the companys training manual, then sign them off for the check ride once they feel comfortable that this guy is capable of single pilot IFR with both engines on fire. In fact, there is a FAR that states exactly what an instructors signoff means (FAR 121.401c).

The check airman's responsibility during a type ride is to ensure that the individual performs to and meets the ATP standards/minimums as listed in the ATP PTS. It is not up to the check airman to set his own standards during a checkride. If the individual meets ATP mins, they should pass. Training should be much harder than checking as training should be held to a higher standard than the actual check ride. It completely sucks (and is a joke) to jeopardize a guys "ticket" due to a check airman who thinks he is "saving" the company by checking to higher standards than what is listed in the ATP PTS. If a check airman has a higher standard than the PTS, he is doing an injustice to his fellow pilot and not following the guidance as listed in the 8400.10.

If a company wants to "train" to those type of standards, do it in a loft (or numerous lofts) scenarios. A check ride is not the place to see if a pilot is chuck yeagar with the mental capacity of Stephen Hawkings.

(off my soapbox now).

Excellent post...

One thing that I find really curious is that there seems to be some impresstion that captains off the street have less than desirable experience. From what I've seen, that is completely wrong. What stops many very well-qualified people from going to the regionals is the FO pay...it's way out of line with what they're making at their current jobs. And, I'm sorry, but to say that because someone hasn't flown a "_________ airline" aircraft so they are just not going to be able to do it is absolutely ridiculous and shows a real lack of experience. A captain is a captain, and if he/she has thousands of hours in jets, multiple types and experience than their qualifications are fine. "___________ airline" jets are not "special" or unique or are somehow much more difficult to operate than any other carriers aircraft just because they have a re-ordered checklist and different uniforms. The job is pretty much the same, either you can do it or you can't.

 

[Raskal]

I do seem to remember alot of Pinnacle bashing the past couple years about street captains. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it's okay?? Just wait until Mesaba street captains hit the line. At least Pinnacle's minimums were 3500 off the street. What are Mesaba's? 1500?
Potential scenario: 1500 hr CA 200 hr FO


Side note:
Regional4life has an excellent point

I know 4 out of 9 people (including myself) who are starting class at XJ on the 19th. Though the mins were 2000 (not 1500), the average is 3500 with 6000 being the high that I know of, previous turbine PIC and at least one jet type. Still worried?

 

[bouttime]

I know 4 out of 9 people (including myself) who are starting class at XJ on the 19th. Though the mins were 2000 (not 1500), the average is 3500 with 6000 being the high that I know of, previous turbine PIC and at least one jet type. Still worried?

I'm reguratating the comments from the past couple years. The people who actually do get hired for the street captain postition may be very qualified. The point that was brought up was you could have an applicant that has 3500 hrs of Cub time and walk in to 9E and be a captain. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I don't hear anything about the possibility of someone with 1500 hrs of Cub time being a CA at XJ. Also a friend who is at XJ told me they have hired 6 people that he knows of with less than 300 hrs.... Pair them up with a 1500 street captain.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm reguratating the comments from the past couple years. The people who actually do get hired for the street captain postition may be very qualified. The point that was brought up was you could have an applicant that has 3500 hrs of Cub time and walk in to 9E and be a captain. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I don't hear anything about the possibility of someone with 1500 hrs of Cub time being a CA at XJ. Also a friend who is at XJ told me they have hired 6 people that he knows of with less than 300 hrs.... Pair them up with a 1500 street captain.....

You got a problem with Cub time?